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Messages - bryes
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151
« on: December 26 2012, 08:12:40 AM »
I should have caught this months ago, as much as I have been reading about cam failures I should have checked it sooner. I thought I'd be OK bc of the "lower" miles and the fact that the car was setting since 2001... before zinc went away in oil I guess. Now its not looking too good as far as me getting a lot of work done during my break. My wife is already ticked at me because we were supposed to take a trip and I instead opted to work on the car. Also, I blew Christmas for her again this year because I guess when women ask for a security system they are not talking about ordering yourself an AR  . But that's more for the Bitch/Whine and Moan thread. Here's why I'll take some more convincing to justify the $500-$700 additional expense to upgrade (is there any machining necessary or will it just slide in?): I already have comp 980's in the heads, so I'd have to buy other springs too. For me running race oil or adding ZDDP is no big deal. Heck, I will likely only drive the car a thousand miles or less each year, so maybe my grandchildren can worry about changing out the cam again! From everything I have read, I don't want to change the factory cam profile because my engine is stock and I have no plans of getting to the point of being able to utilize a more aggressive cam. I'm open to entertaining the idea though so I'd sure like to hear any opinions on the subject.
152
« on: December 25 2012, 11:28:44 PM »
Yes they do seem to have a hardened feet.
I tried that but I still cannot, I think that this tells the tale though.
I dyed the bottom of all the lifters and then ran them over the plate glass. Each and every one of them wore off the dye on the edges but none in the middle. Even the ones that look like they have no dye removed in the picture actually have a very small strip removed from the edge. Each and every lifter is concave.
153
« on: December 25 2012, 10:33:53 PM »
I've been using calipers for this.
I tried spinning the lifters on the plate glass but they are all really felt similar. I also tried to see if they'd stick with a little oil and they all seemed similar again.
154
« on: December 25 2012, 08:51:20 PM »
Thanks again earl,
Oh, that explains such a drastic difference, that pesky rocker ratio, I was wondering how they could be worn so much!
I tried putting the lifters on some plate glass (have them all #'d with a sharpie now and egg cartoned to not mix them) and unfortunately I didn't notice any of them wobbling. I wish I had some new ones to compare with though, because it seams highly unlikely that all of them are really bad.
Because I am not confident with my skills utilizing the "earl brown plate glass method", I just now also remeasured all of the lobes; as it turns out, they were all within 0.002" of the original values in my previous post. I believe even though they are all over the place we can be confident to make a decision about the cam using those measurements.
155
« on: December 25 2012, 04:19:54 PM »
Merry Christmas to everyone and thanks again for everyone's help on the timing seal fiasco, looks like we have another one to deal with.
Now that the front cover is finished I was ready to install the cam. I was going to "dial" it in once I had it installed but I decided to do a sanity check by measuring each lobe at the maximum and minimum. I believe the cam is shot, now I'm kicking myself for not checking it sooner.
From front back for lobes 1-12, the maximum measurements for each lobe were:
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
1.490, 1.485, 1.465, 1.465, 1.475, 1.464, 1.457, 1.468, 1.469, 1.468, 1.487, 1.485
Each minimum lobe diameter was consistently right around 1.230"
The way that I see it, not only do the cam lobes vary by over 0.030", but the maximum lift of any lifter is:
1.490" - 1.230" = 0.260".
From the factory the lift should be 0.384"/ 408".
I was really hoping to not replace the cam and thought that it would be OK since the engine only has 58k on it (supposedly), but obviously I'll have to get a new one.
Does anyone have any suggestions? I really want the cam and lifters to be made in the usa. I am OK with spending more to get a superior flat tappet variety, but I don't want to spend a mint for a roller. I believe I am going to go with the stock spec cam because this is going to be mild motor. Any suggestions on what and where to buy would be very helpful
Thanks in advance
Bryes
156
« on: December 24 2012, 07:19:10 PM »
Yeah, that was way harder than it needed to be.
157
« on: December 24 2012, 05:18:35 PM »
Well I wasted my entire day but I finally think I got the right seal. In the morning I was trying to just buy the seal instead of the kit, and found that nobody, not even the dealer has them in stock. Then I read earl's post and decided to try buying the full kit. Sure enough Oreily's down the street had it. I got it home to find that the kit contained a seal with 2.25" OD, too small (See first picture below)! Not sure what this seal is for and I can't read any #s on it, but it won't install in the cover or fit over the balancer.
I did notice that the kit from Oreily's had been taped so I called advance and made the guy rip into the kit and measure the seal, he said it was 2 5/8" so I bought it. Sure enough, finally it is the right one. It's a national K100674-R and is made in mexico. I wish the timken had worked (made in usa, company HQ in Canton Ohio), but at this point I would have bought one from Joseph Stalin... and left a tip!
This one fits easily and has the lip that earl mentioned that the others did not. Pictured again below.
Lessons learned:
Pt # 710162, od = 2-3/4" does not work
Always be leery of opened packaging
Don't buy the front timing seal individually, buy the TC 45930 kit
National S-I2623 K100674-R is 2 5/8" at the ridges and will fit.
158
« on: December 24 2012, 07:57:03 AM »
LOL! If there is one thing that "who framed roger rabbit" has taught us, it's that cartoons are always "a little off"!
That Timken seal did not have ridges on the OD, it was smooth and there was no bent ridge to keep it from being installed too deep. It looked to me like the whole OD measured around 2-3/4" no matter how deep you put the calipers on it... any cross-section cut perpendicular to the centerline of the bearing would have the same OD as the cartoon.
I wish that I could order that $9 set, but I have this week off and I don't want to wait that long! I'm going to go to NAPA when they open to see if they have the fel-pro part.
Thanks again,
Bryes
159
« on: December 23 2012, 09:38:03 PM »
Thanks for getting back with me so quickly.
Let's see if this picture helps. I did drive out the rope seal ring, so that was never the issue. Below is a picture of the front cover, seal and my measurements. I returned the seal earlier, so I had to cartoon it in. I was afraid to drive it into place because of how much interference (1/8") and while I haven't ever installed this exact seal before, I don't remember any of the others having so much interference.
Earl, it seems like you are measuring similar dimensions?
If so I guess I'll have to try again.
Thanks
Bryes
160
« on: December 23 2012, 05:13:44 PM »
Hello again,
I am having difficulty finding the correct front seal for the timing cover. After removing the old rope seal ring I measure the ID on my cover as about 2 5/8" . The oil seals that I tried from autozone and Oreily's both seem to measure 2 3/4". I know that those things are always a tight fit but this seems way off. I think I'd wind up breaking the cover before it would press in there.
Both stores referenced the same pt#, 710162 which was 2-3/4" OD. Does anyone know if this is correct?
Thanks
Bryes
161
« on: December 16 2012, 10:15:52 PM »
Thanks again for your response earl. I think that I was able to address the bearing issue. Although it looks like it was thoroughly coated with paint in the picture, it was just overspray. I can see bearing material shining through the overspray all the way around the circumference of the bearing. I am just not worried about it because it can't really flake off or curl up. To my knowledge, the last machine shop that this engine has seen was in '86 or '87 in the GM plant! I think I noticed today that the bearing is installed clocked at 7:30 (I couldn't tell if it was AM or PM)  Well this weekend I was able to "earl Brown" my front cover. Also, I sandblasted some more bolts in addition to the valve covers (a few places I had missed before) and the water pump. I am preparing to use the old water pump should Santa Clause not bring me one this year. Unfortunately, I've been on the naughty list for quite a few years now... so I am not expecting much  I am still waiting on the cam thrust bearing, I ordered one last week but the one that came in was the old vinyl style. Not sure how that happened because I tried to order one for the '95 PA. I guess that is what I get for ordering from ebay. It looks like I will also have to buy another tensioner. Well I should have plenty of time to work on this thing in the next few weeks, so as long as I am not waiting on parts, I think I have a chance of getting it in the car.
162
« on: December 10 2012, 12:07:08 AM »
Thanks for the link 1987 GN.
As always thanks a lot for your in detailed responses Earl,
by paragraph:
When I pulled the timing cover off the pin came with it. I was finally able to separate the crank bracket from the timing cover, but now the pin is indeed still stuck in the bracket!
I still have the OEM crank sensor but it looks like now I will likely be forced to go aftermarket. Will any aftermarket bracket work or will I have
Ok, that's the one I'll get.
Well one thing for sure, the paint has cured now. In retrospect, I should have just put the cam in before spraying. I don't think all is lost though, because while all evidence clearly points to the contrary, believe it or not I didn't intentionally paint the Cam bearing! I tried to just coat the engine just past where the timing cover installed, so maybe it is not very thick... maybe just overspray. Either way, I can probably remove the paint with scotchbright if I have to. Do you think it would really be a problem other than than installing the cam? I'd think it would just wear off and be flushed by the oil into the crankcase. What would be the worst case scenario, a flake? Has anyone had problems painting a bearing?
I'll check out those blocks to see if what I can see. I definitely don't want flakes in my oil passages. If I have to I'll pull them off.
Ok, hopefully that bearing isn't coming out.
I'll be sure to set the intake on to see, if I missed places I can touch them up.
163
« on: December 09 2012, 10:21:27 PM »
Well I was able to work on the motor this weekend for quite a bit, and although I didn't get as far along as I would have liked to, hopefully the engine will really start taking shape next weekend. I have been sandblasting, chasing the threads and painting just about every fastener, so it is pretty time consuming. Attached is a picture of the motor in its current state. You can see the oil pan laying upside-down on top. Everything came out fairly nice I'd say, especially for the non-ideal circumstances. I think I had some water in the air lines because my little 2 horse compressor doesn't have any filter, so there are small fish-eyes places, but you have to really look to find them. I'll have to figure out something else when I paint the bumper fillers though. I am currently working on the timing cover. I had one heck of a time getting the aluminum bracket that mounts the crank position sensor off of the cover. The dowel was rusted and more or less welded the bracket to the cover. To make matters worse, now I can't get the "pinch bolt" loosened up to remove the sensor, I'm afraid the bolt is just about ready to snap (my next step is heating the bracket, but I'll ruin the sensor). Does anyone sell the whole bracket? Also, I have to order the cam button and have been reading that it is better to use a roller button out of later model 3.8. Is this the right way to go? Anyway, that is the update for now, hopefully next week I'll be further along and cant take some better pictures before the sun goes down. There is not enough daylight this time of year, especially when you start working at 1  Bryes
164
« on: December 02 2012, 08:29:37 PM »
I have a small update this week, no pictures because I finished up working today when it was dark. I will try to take some more ASAP, but it will probably be next weekend.
I had a lot going on in September and October, so I was only able to work on the car sporadically, but now I am starting to get back into it. I have the short block assembled now and have sandblasted all of the pulleys, brackets and etc., but I have been stuck trying to paint everything for probably the last month or so. The weather hasn't been cooperating down here, in fact, twice I brought everything out to paint and failed. I thought Ohio was the only place that bringing parts outside to paint instantly triggers rain clouds, but it seems to work in Savannah too!
Fortunately for me today, the third time was the charm, today the weather was perfect! I was sweating bullets there for a bit thinking that it could be a major stumbling block if the temperature would drop here in Savannah and not rise sufficiently until spring. In Ohio, I have painted even in the 50's, but its hard enough for me to get everything right as it is, so the last thing I want to do was to throw another variable into the equation. Fortunately I was able to spray everything I had prepped. I had some issued with fisheyes on the turbo cover, and dropped one pulley I had just painted in the dirt, but aside from these two mishaps, I think everything turned out pretty well. I used Dupont Imron to paint everything. Old school I know, but I trust that stuff to be tough as nails. It's been awhile since I have painted anything, so that's my excuse for the rookie mistakes.
I should also mention that a few weeks ago I finished sandblasting and painting the headers. I used a Por 15 product called "Black Velvet" that summit racing had on clearance. More pictures on this next week as well.
Well sorry again for the lack of pictures but I'm just really glad to get the paint job out of the way. Hopefully it still looks decent when I see everything in full light! I'll try and get some pictures up so you can tell me what you think.
Bryes
165
« on: August 26 2012, 10:42:10 PM »
my site is copies of the shop manual
most things I read show .0045 to .006" per inch of bore
Well mystery solved I think, the ring gaps that I were measuring were both secondary compression ring. I installed a used primary compression ring and I measured it to be a 0.015" gap! Strange both secondary rings are > 0.032" when it calls for the same 0.010 - 0.020. I wonder though if the secondary rings aren't made from a softer material and therefore were more worn. When I compare the "width" (OD - ID) of my used secondary compression rings they are noticeably thinner than the new rings in my set, whereas the primary compression rings are the same "width" as both the new rings... With this in mind, I am no longer afraid to go a little less on the gaps, but I think I'll still aim for the 20 just to be sure. Thanks again for all your help Steve! Bryes
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