IHADAV8.com - Turbo Buick Tech, and Nonsense
Tech Area => General Buick Tech => Topic started by: slojim on April 17 2024, 09:56:23 PM
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Haven't started the gn in too long. I tried this week, but I didn't get any fuel. My tank has a little rust inside, not too bad. It's the original tank with the plastic baffle. I'm thinking of trying electrolysis inside the tank while I have it out. Anybody ever try that?
I need a new fuel pump. The old one was a walbro gss242, 190lph. They seem to be obsolete, I can upsize to a gss340gen3 or a racetronix 255lph. I have an fpr and a hot wire kit long installed. I've never touched the return line and I didn't think the 255lph size needs that. The sender is ok and I don't plan to replace anything extra until I know the car starts. Am I missing anything?
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Electrolysis works ok for very mild surface rust. But after if not treated it will rust even more and faster.
Used to use a product called Kreem coat on motorcycle tanks. Its a 3 part system that lines the tank and works great. Not sure how cost effective it is on a 18 gal tank since it's costs about $40 to treat a 5gal tank. New Buick tanks are around $125.
The Walbro pumps you mentioned are all about the same rating. Only difference it the inlet how the sock sets up. All are good for around 500hp. Not sure what the new flavors are these days since Walbro are old school but work great.
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There are some companies that specialize in cleaning out fuel tanks. I believe they use something to line them with after getting them clean to prevent the rust from reappearing. I know there is one near Houston.
I am with Ed, nothing special required with the pump. I would check with Cotton or Mike Licht.
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https://fullthrottlespeed.com/collections/fuel-pumps-and-accessories/products/1986-87-turbo-buick-v6-3-8l-hp-255lph-fuel-pump-installation-kit
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Thanks. That place is on the north end, a pretty long haul for me, and considering I can get a new tank for $200 give or take, not the choice I'm making today. I called around me, no one seems to be interested in cleaning. That is ok, I'm excited to try hydrolysis and all I'm trying to do is get it started before I make bigger decisions.
Yep, I've got a pump from full throttle and from racetronix pulled up. I note the racetronix ones say they are e85 friendly, while the tpi/walbro ones do not. Seems likely they would be, but they call it out on their bigger models
I'll take some pictures. Finding tsp took 3 stops
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Takes about twice the size of pump than the usual 10% ethanol. E 85 is very corrosive as well.
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255 with 80's took me well into 6's in the 1/8th with race gas. The 340 might need a larger return line. Some get away without it. Guys on the other board are saying some of the E85 they get is lower. It's a crapshoot. If you're gonna run E85 I'm fairly certain you need bigger lines...and possibly a 450 pump. Cruz and other vendors sell the larger lines. Racetronix is here in Canada in Scarborough. Expect the shipping to be a little slower getting to you.
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I've no intention right now of running E85 - I just figured the encapsulated windings would be a little more robust and the overall construction maybe a little more corrosion-resistant to regular gas. I considered a 340, and maybe the whole sender, but I'd have to run a return line, and I don't have injectors to take advantage of the extra gas. So for now, I'm probably just going to get the walbro 255, probably the kit off of FTS. The kit is 2x the bare pump, but all those little parts fell apart when I pulled the pump. It appears the correct gas tank is at rockauto, SPECTRA PREMIUM GM307C. My electrolysis experiment took out a lot of rust, but it visually looks the same with plenty of scale, so for <$230, I guess it's time for a new one.
I am sorely tempted to get a cheap fuel pump off of rockauto - they run from $11 to $50 generally with a full install kit minus the $5 sock - I just want to start the car and see what else is needed, and when highway stars has the short rubber fuel lines in stock I''ll want to drop the tank again and replace mine - but I wouldn't be comfortable driving with an under-rated pump.
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here are some before pictures of my gas tank - the phone is upside down in the hole, facing 4 different directions - so your seeing the inner roof of the tank above the plastic baffle.
The last picture is looking down in - note, this orange baffle rust stain came out during electrolysis.
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here's a pic of my electrolysis rig. My wife was super uncomfortable I'd electrocute the dog, so I only ran it 8 hours while I could keep an eye on it. I think I used a cup and a half of washing soda in the full gas tank. I did get orange goo coming up, and I did have to replace a little bit of water.
You can't see it, but I used an old steel edger blade, due for replacement, as my sacrificial anode.
I read about flash rust - holy cow - the edger blade rusted up in like 2 minutes, well before I even had the fuel tank drained. Anyway, once I emptied it, I fogged it with WD40.
It was a neat experiment/learning - but I can't call it succesful - I probably needed to go for 2 days.
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and the results - look a lot like the before pics. as I said, the orange stain is gone, and I dumped out a lot of rust - covered the bottom easily of a 5 gallon bucket.
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I you wanna run a cheap pump, then I have videos on how to change head gaskets.
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for all my plans of limiting $ until I can get it started, looks like I'm headed down that road. I took a hard look at the hanger/sender - it's serviceable, but there's rust up in the tube that I can't get to. So I'll be replacing that - looking like the racetronix 255 G7 sender assembly. My bigger problem is the tank. RockAuto has them for $165 shipped - but they have confirmed to me that they can't confirm I'll get what I order, and I'll be responsible for shipping back EVEN IF it isn't properly baffled. Lot's of people have them for $240 plus shipping. It looks like O-Reilly can get one today but it's in a warehouse so I can't look at it, Autozone has one an hour away, and PartCatalog in Austin has 10 on the shelf - and I may be driving to Austin in a few weeks anyway. I'm calling OReilly
For posterity sake - I'll note this here about fuel lines. I considered whether I should replace the rubber lines over the tank with SS braided teflon since the rubbers are out of stock currently, or even upsize the return line - and saw a lot of discussion on conductive vs non-conductive liners, and a lot of opinions on whether it was worth it or not based on experience or risk tolerance. But I looked up the manufacturer spec sheet, and they suggested it for applications over 2 meters/sec flow of flammable liquids. In a 5/16 ID line like AN6 sized, that is a hair over 340LPH - that explains to me why there are different experiences - most folks are not flowing that much, but many are.
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I would replace the old rubber with a quality rubber high-pressure fuel line. You can buy it by the foot at parts stores. Get the correct clamps as well and you won't have problems.
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That rust is gonna be everywhere. Swap in a new fuel filter. I'd pull the injectors and have them cleaned.
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Those fuel lines connections can be a whore...they'll wanna spin the line. Spray the fuck out of them with WD-40 24 hours in advance...and use the proper line wrenches. If it wants to spin the line spray it with WD-40 and wait. This ain't your DD so take your time.
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I used the cheapass fuel filters from the local parts store and had zero issues with them...and I swapped a new pump and filter in every spring before the race season fired up.
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Got a new spectra premium 307c from advance, shipped direct from spectras Indiana warehouse last month. Hurt my leg so it sat a few weekends, but I opened it up today and it is a painted grey tank with a 2" pie plate baffle, not the taller squared baffle I was expecting. The tank says made in Taiwan, and has 2 part numbers, 240307 , gm307c, and also the box shows cgm307c. Frustrating. I'm going to try to contact spectra to see what's up, and probably return this tank to advance if I can. Feels like I'll have trouble avoiding shipping and restocking fees.
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Might be the latest one model fits all
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took a couple of days, but I got through to a tech at Spectra who looked up his info and confirmed they've changed suppliers for the GM307C, the pie pan baffle is indeed the new design, and he also confirmed that was all the stock they had.
My car isn't wild, my guess is the worst scenario currently is I that I forgot how to drive it and swing the rear end around leaving a light on a low tank level, and stall in an intersection. Not so likely.
But right now the tank is clean - now would be the time to modify it. Any of you think its reasonable to cut out the top and weld in a baffle? I don't have a welder, I'd have to pay a shop.
Shy of a custom tank, I'm not confident I can order a better baffled tank than the one I have sitting here, plus I'm sure now I'll have ot pay to return this #$^$%&@@!.
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I would leave it alone. Don't throw it around corners hard with less than a 1/4 tank?
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I would not settle for a pie pan for a baffle. Every time you take off from a stop you will starve the pump.
Get your money back. Spend the money and Get the RIGHT tank.
Don't settle for garbage. That tank is not useable in a GN.
GET THEM TO PAY FOR RETURN SHIPPING FOR SELLING AN INFERIOR PRODUCT !
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I hear you xracerx13, but its not like the person behind the counter will have a lot of flexibility, and there's weasel language on the order page, plus a bunch of people and suppliers asserting it meets OEM.
Steve, I was coming around on leaving it, but it irritates me more than it should.
I heard back from G-Body parts via email and they say they have "the baffled tanks" - I tried calling but can't get through on the phone. If they can confirm they mean something closer to the large OEM or prior spectra baffle and not the pie plate, I'll get it.
Never ordered from GBodyParts before - reputable? They've been around long enough to have fans and detractors but are still in business - must be doing something right.
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ooof - I guess I should have searched for gbodyparts reviews - but at least now I know why I could not reach anyone on the phone.
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I think they are much better than they used to be. I can't remember if I saw they were on FB if they were on vacation or such. They have some nice stuff these days.
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Guess you could always just order a Ricks’ Tank and be done .
Your pocket book would be a lot lighter though
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Damn, that's a work of art and a shame to hide under the car! If I was doing wheel stands, then the extra twelve hundred dollars would probably make more sense.
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Just a thought
https://www.holley.com/products/fuel_systems/fuel_tanks/stock_replacement_fuel_tanks/parts/19-584
doesn't say 100% if it's baffled.
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thanks nocooler - if I go to the site and zoom in, I see the same markings on top as the new one I have that has the pie pan baffle.
I did not hear back from GBodayParts today - but unless they have old stock I suspect the same source - I mean, how many places are stamping out stock fuel tanks for late 80's cars?
I've only got until Friday to return this one I have - so unless I have a line on a real baffled tank, I'll end up using it. My car is mild and a custom tank would be a waste - I just need to train myself to get gas before E.
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I could tell it was the same because of the grey paint.
Contact Brian Weaver directly at bweavy@gbodyparts.com
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Sorry - I just knew they sold an “efi” tank for a gbody, doesn’t surprise me that they sell the same tank as everyone else.
It’s been awhile since I’ve been in a Buick tank, but I can tell you my fbody tank does not have baffling in it from the factory. The stock setup use a fuel bucket/venturi system. I have omitted the factory setup and have 2 450s in the same space. They set in a “sump” if you could even call it that, each pump staggered off the bottom 1/2”-3/4” respectively
I guess what I’m trying to say is my car goes mid 1.3 60ft - I try not to run it hard below half tank. But on the occasion I have, I’ve seen zero pressure drop at the rail when I’m doing stupid stuff on the street.
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I was just thinking that, while I've lurked on and off, I've rarely engaged, so it's interesting that I have a 3rd page on my post. That said, now I have to eat some humble pie.
When my tank came in, I was on one leg and hobbling around. I saw the pie pan, tried my best to get an internal picture, and saw the other side of the tank - no baffle. But when I was boxing it up to return it today, I reached in and - well, there's a baffle. It's just not the same style I had seen in other posts. I'll post a picture this weekend when I paint it.
That said - thanks Xracerx13 for Brian's email - he got back to me right away, and actually it seems he and the tech (Bill) were both responding. They've been helpful, even taking pictures of the tanks they have - they have 21 right now by the way, and unlike Spectra (who makes a million tanks) - they knew exactly what we were talking about. I ordered from somewhere nearby so I could return it if it was wrong- but actually, GBodyparts has a better price even with shipping. I had to apologize to them for essentially wasting their time but based on their engagement, I will feel good about ordering from them going forward.
Some of this I'm over documenting because I read through so many posts myself to try to figure out where to order the right tank and there were so many contradictions - so maybe this helps someone.
So this weekend - I'm painting the tank black, pulling the fuel rail and injectors, blowing out the rail, inspecting and soaking the injectors, and blowing out the fuel lines - I am pretty sure I'll find I need new fuel lines but I need to clear them anyway before I remove them. I promised myself I wouldn't order more parts until I got some work done - I don't need to add to my pile of "Seemed like the right idea at the time" parts.
There - I have it in writing before the Buick community that I WILL WORK ON MY GN this weekend!!!!
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painted the tank black with some rustoleum enamel and a cheap foam roller, looks pretty decent.
pulled the regulator and blew out the fuel lines - got about a quart of orange usta-b-gas.
My car is pulled in to a garage just long enough for it so I have no access to the front side of the engine bay, and it is lowered a little with aftermarket springs. All this to say I'm realizing that changing the fuel line where it is will be a royal pain due to access.
Most conservative plan would be to get 2 more jack stands and jack it up on all 4 corners in the garage, then change the fuel lines.
Easiest plan would be to put on a new fuel pump, remount the gas tank, start the car, and pull it out and run it up on ramps (with 2 jack stands under the front as safety back-up - I have plastic ramps).
If the car is on ramps for more than a few days, I'll get a notice from the HOA but it won't be a big deal. I'm more worried about bad weather or a tropical storm (Gulf Coast).
Guess I just figured out what I'm doing. But I made some progress, so now I get to order the fuel lines and pump, and go pick up 2 more jack stands. And look for a fp regulator rebuild kit.
I shut down my aquarium in February as we were thinking about moving but did not - seems my Buick is filling the void in time and $!
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Darn, now I have quickjack envy!
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Fuel lines are no fun. Are the current ones rusted badly? Sounds like a job for "next" year.😂
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So I got a pump and install parts from racetronix. I think the pump sits on the sender and the filter stick sits below, and there's no need for the soft rubber boot, right? Sender, hose, pump, sender foot, sock.
My sender cleaned up better than expected with free-all and a wire brush. The free all seemed to eat the rust. Cleaned the pins and connectors but still have 2 ohms from pump connector to power connector, I think this will do for now.
I won't get the tank up in for a few more weekends
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I don't think anyone used the rubber sleeve. I believe it was for noise damping.
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just keeping myself accountable: I did not expect to have time for a few weekends, but I did have a few hours this afternoon - got the pump installed on the hangar, hanger in the tank, cleaned up the tank straps and got the tank in place and hoses hooked up. Still need to wire it up.
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I finally got it started today.
TLDR:
I can't seem to get the tank strapped up properly. I doubt the tank is thicker than the OEM but it acts like it. I had to loosen the bolts near the axle all the way but the loop on the front is still about a 1/2" from the hole.
sooooooo
I used some tie wire to hold it up for testing purposes. Took a few attempts to build fuel pressure, but once I did, it started right up and idled well in the garage. I let it go until the thermostat opened and the radiator fan came on. No other obvious new issues or SES light. Except the scanmaster did not power up. Still have some work to do to get it street-worthy, but now I can get it out of the garage if I want.
I'll hold on to the old tank until I get this installed correctly for comparison purposes.
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I pulled the tank back down and compared it to the original - visually not much difference except the flanges. I bent them in where the straps are, like the OEM tank. That got me closer but not quite. I had to remove the rubber strap to finally get the bolts on, and I had to hook up the passenger side rear bolt then force the undercarriage bolt to line up and drive it in. I confirmed it is only hitting at the reinforced area where the tank mounts - no rubber hose holder or hose clamps or wiring in the way. It is what it is for now. When I eventually get it out of the garage and up on ramps or stands and have some room I may give it another try.
I'm done with this thread - I need to get the seat foam replaced and the exhaust re-hung which will include some welding, and maybe an inline muffler to supplement. Before I take it to a shop I need to re-work the door straps and weather stripping when I have a free and sunny weekend, and replace the tires.
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You have put a lot of work into it!