Valve Springs replacement

[gnonyx]

Hi All,
I though I was finally able to put my 87 GN on the road after doing a lot of work for so many months, and the only thing that is in my mind and Steve mention to do is to replace the intake manifold gasket. I already did a smoke test during the time of replacing the Throttle body area gaskets, exhaust area and found no leaks.
I did wanted to clean and relocate the ground wires behind the pass. head, and I tried to remove the ground bolt in many different location, but still no good. So I decided to remove the manifold, and valve spring cover to reach the ground wires for easy access.
While the valve cover is remove I'm also going to replace the valve springs, and now I question is which valve springs.
I was reading on the other forum and one Buick member claimed the following:

The 980 is too soft, too soft even for a stock cam. The 981 will be a big improvement. 86lb@1.75 with a 373Lb rate.

The SpeedWay Z28 spring 180671515 is also a good choice. Just Slightly more than the 981, only 5lbs or so. 91Lb@1.75" with 379lb rate.

I already ordered the following:
Manifold valley pan gasket -  FEL-PRO MS96033
Premium Valve Stem Seals - FEL-PRO SS72623

Being this will be my first time doing a valve spring replacement, does any member do this type of work doing pre measured for height and compression?

I have an no smoke unopen engine with 92,000 miles, with the following:
87 GN T-Top, ScanMaster, Racetronix hot-wire kit with fuel pump, Commander chips with 60# injectors, adj. fuel pump, triple pod gauges w/ Auto Meter A/F gauge, oil pressure gauge, vac/boost gauge, Kenne Belle rear seat brace, upgraded transmission w/ Art Carr pan cover, Brute Force Universal Joint, RJC stock plenum plate and 3" GM MAF.
Thanks

[Steve Wood]

Go back and read all the valve spring stuff that was in XracerX13's thread.  As you are not running high boost, your situation should not be particularly crucial....and you are not running higher than normal rpm's either.  I forget what Joe ended up about shimming but he covered everything as I recall.

[gnonyx]

Go back and read all the valve spring stuff that was in XracerX13's thread.  As you are not running high boost, your situation should not be particularly crucial....and you are not running higher than normal rpm's either.  I forget what Joe ended up about shimming but he covered everything as I recall.

I read XracerX13's threads, and he wanted to stay under 90# stock pressure, but a lot of TR user claimed the 980's are too soft even for stock cam, and once the break it period, and driving the 980's might even drop 10#'s.
Many with stock cam replaced with the 981's, but you have to measure and shims, and that is something I don't have the tools.
There are many options of valve spring replacement for stock cam, but what I'm looking for is someone has the talent and experiences in doing these measurements, with attached shims if needed, so all I have to do is install them.
If the best option is to go with 981, NAPA springs, or even Kirban.
Steve, You wrote about Kirban valve springs:
Kirban sells that are rated at 100 psi and I think that is at 1.727.  The spring rate is 430 according to Kirban (NOTE, his site says maximum lift is 430 so I am just guessing that is rate but I don't know) so they would be a bit stiffer than the 981s when on the nose of the lobe.
I know I can call Kirban and ask him the same question I'm asking you, do think Kirban valve springs are direct replaceable?
Do you know or recommend anyone who can measure attached with correct shims per valve springs?

[Steve Wood]

Did you notice that I said you don't need as much because you are not running high boost, or high rpm?

I would just stick the 981's in without any measuring or shimming and be done with it.

[gnonyx]

Did you notice that I said you don't need as much because you are not running high boost, or high rpm?

I would just stick the 981's in without any measuring or shimming and be done with it.

What about the valve springs of dealing with shims , and height measurement.

Okay, the 981 height is 1700, and yet Kirban sells that are rated at 100 psi at 1.727
Don't I need to add some shims to make the differences of height if I use the 981?

 By the way, did you finally put the big block engine on your other car?

[Scoobum]

Quote from: Steve Wood on November 06 2021, 08:54:23 PMDid you notice that I said you don't need as much because you are not running high boost, or high rpm?

I would just stick the 981's in without any measuring or shimming and be done with it.
What about the valve springs of dealing with shims , and height measurement.

Okay, the 981 height is 1700, and yet Kirban sells that are rated at 100 psi at 1.727
Don't I need to add some shims to make the differences of height if I use the 981?

 By the way, did you finally put the big block engine on your other car?

Reply 3, 2nd sentence. I'm gonna go have a beer and calm down.

[Scoobum]

Steve, these are graphs of SpeedwayZ28 springs...they're 5 pounds heavier than 981's. Thought maybe these graphs would be a good illustration as to what happens with soft springs for the guys. Maybe add another chapter to your site. P.S. Your patience level is in the stratosphere. Top graph is 980's...bottom is SpeedwayZ28's.

[Steve Wood]

Just stick them in like a million before you.  Don't worry about the shims.  All the shims will do is make them a bit stiffer but they are already stiffer than factory so there is no need to add shims and add more tension.  If you were running 25 lbs of boost and 5800 rpm, I would add the shims or use a different spring but you are not, to my knowledge.  Kirban springs have nothing to do with this as you have comp springs.

The engine swap is in the middle of a snag.  I think the new torque converter is a bit off spec and appears to not want to go far enuf into the transmission.  Needs to go another 1/8" to give me the properly flex plate clearance so it won't take out the pump or thrust bearing.  Also the transmission we used does not have a mounting boss to hook the column shifter to.  I made a bracket but that was in the way of the cooler lines and the throttle valve cable.  then I noticed a cracked tail housing transmission mounting point.

We called time out, got a new transmission and Dusty is putting us in line for another converter in case I am right.  If my son ends up making it up for Thanksgiving, we will try to drop the transmission and see if I right in my thought that the converter was mis-welded or not.  In other words this friggin' car should have been finished a year ago but life interferes when my son lives 300 miles away and covid has interfered with him getting up since the 4th of July.

[gnonyx]

Quote from: Steve Wood on November 06 2021, 08:54:23 PMDid you notice that I said you don't need as much because you are not running high boost, or high rpm?

I would just stick the 981's in without any measuring or shimming and be done with it.
What about the valve springs of dealing with shims , and height measurement.

Okay, the 981 height is 1700, and yet Kirban sells that are rated at 100 psi at 1.727
Don't I need to add some shims to make the differences of height if I use the 981?

 By the way, did you finally put the big block engine on your other car?

Reply 3, 2nd sentence. I'm gonna go have a beer and calm down.

Hi Scoobum,
I thank GOD that Steve has patience's for people like me who asks questions of the unknown to many would thing its minor.
When it comes to valve springs, there are many version of installing valve springs, as to using with shims or not, and the type of springs that needs to be shim or not. these questions and many more are things that helps me and others to understand about the valve springs. Especially like myself I like to installed them once and not need to remove the valve cover to add shims after break in or valves springs making loud tapping noise. Again, this may sounds stupid, but like I always say, a stupid question is one not being ask.

[gnonyx]

Just stick them in like a million before you.  Don't worry about the shims.  All the shims will do is make them a bit stiffer but they are already stiffer than factory so there is no need to add shims and add more tension.  If you were running 25 lbs of boost and 5800 rpm, I would add the shims or use a different spring but you are not, to my knowledge.  Kirban springs have nothing to do with this as you have comp springs.

The engine swap is in the middle of a snag.  I think the new torque converter is a bit off spec and appears to not want to go far enuf into the transmission.  Needs to go another 1/8" to give me the properly flex plate clearance so it won't take out the pump or thrust bearing.  Also the transmission we used does not have a mounting boss to hook the column shifter to.  I made a bracket but that was in the way of the cooler lines and the throttle valve cable.  then I noticed a cracked tail housing transmission mounting point.

We called time out, got a new transmission and Dusty is putting us in line for another converter in case I am right.  If my son ends up making it up for Thanksgiving, we will try to drop the transmission and see if I right in my thought that the converter was mis-welded or not.  In other words this friggin' car should have been finished a year ago but life interferes when my son lives 300 miles away and covid has interfered with him getting up since the 4th of July.

It's too bad my wife and I don't live near you, as I would definingly help you out, but not the early in the morning stuff; that's too early for me. 
My wife like Texas and was in San Antonio for a while, but she claimed the lightning are just close to the ground, and now we're in South Carolina, previous born and raise in New York.

[Steve Wood]

I could suck it up and get it done.  I know a guy or two that would help me but besides not being motivated, my son needs to be part of the work so he can learn how it went together for when I am not around to be asked.

Took me a week to build four wheel cradles to set it upon to make it easier to get under.  I have a four post lift but I decided it would be easier to just get it up on blocks and not have to work around the wheel ramps on the lift.

Your wife was right.  Had a storm the other night that was so close to me that the I heard the thunder the same time I saw the lightning.  I thought the house was gonna get knocked off the slab from the concussions.

[gnonyx]

Kirban springs have nothing to do with this as you have comp springs.

Hi Steve,
I was reading over the threads again and I was asking about Kirban since I don't have comp as the only two I was thinking of was comp or Kirban.

[~JM~]

Are you familiar with Bison?

I ordered a set of measured & matched valve springs, timing set, gaskets, etc. I thought the pricing was reasonable.

I had trouble swapping the springs, but that was my fault. Make sure you bring the piston to TDC on each cylinder before you compress the valve spring.

[Scoobum]

Fire the compressor up...screw the spark plug adaptor in...put the bottom lock in in first...then the top. I'll be here all week.

[gnonyx]

Okay , I'm here to start an war or argument, but need some education on how to install valve springs from start to finish.
Yes, I know Steve you claimed just get the comp cam 981's and install them since I'm not going to 5,000 rpm.
I forgot what were the factory's spec. of the highest rpm?
Someone did mention that #3 exhaust spring has less tension than the others due to the slight misalignment issue between lifter & lobe that is present, because it spins slower because of an engineering flaw in the bore placement and is much more prone to failure. With this one will need to replace the #3 exhaust with a weaker valve spring.
Again This info is new to me as installing  valve springs is new to me, but I enjoy learning and listen to others expertise on how to do this type of replacement.