Have Had Lots of Troubles with my New Engine/Trans Combo 2004-R

[KenBean]

Lots of Troubles with my New Engine/Trans Combo
Greetings all,

I am a new member this is my 1st post.

I am here with you guys because no one should know more about 2004-R's than you folks, but mine is behind a SBC V8 and I am having difficulty figuring if I have engine issues or trans issues. But most certainly at least some of both?

If you want a good read go over and check out this Forum for all the background to my woes, sorry its super lengthy but very informative: https://www.stevesnovasite.com/threads/help-diagnosing-performance-crate-engine-runs-ok-but-fairly-stock-bottom-end-mid-and-peak-power.673177/page-3#post-5902418

I have been through the ringer trying to get this right and need a good solution without dumping tons (more) cash, and ideally not tons (more) of time.

The car does well off the line but then you can barely tell it hitting 2nd and so on despite being a fresh build with a shift kit. Basically a soft mushy hit of 2nd, and early, at like 3200RPM. Seems to bog or be low on power, but also a better shift may help even that feel better. Engine is a 350ci in a 72 Nova, 3.42 rear.

The 2004-R was out of a 1991 Caprice, I think. Got it out of a junkyard since I just wanted to have it rebuilt to go in the place of a TH-350.....teh OD of course. I only needed a cross-member to do the swap, drive shaft was still fine otherwise I may have done a 700 or something else, but that takes a cross-member and shaft, etc.

I have tried 2 carbs (The link to that forum chronicles my search of the engine for issues, carbs was one suggestion).

1) 1st carb, a Holley 670 Street avenger vacuum secondary with the Sonnax kit for the TV to add to the throttle arm as well as the bracket to hold the throttle and TV connections to the rear bolt of the carb. At full extension I was getting about 1.100" @ WOT.

With this arrangement I got the following pressures:
PND3@idle=60, R@idle100, 2&3@Idle 157

Then holding TV cable full extension (TV cable disconnected from throttle so that the car can still stay running at 700-800RPM idle) the trans read pressures as follows:
PND3@idle=155, R@idle=250, 2&3@Idle=160

2) The 2nd carb on it now is a Quickfuel SS650. This carb has the TV spot built into the throttle lever, so it needs no converter kit. I also still used the bracket to hold both throttle and TV connections to the rear bolt of the carb. I think its even less firm of a shift to 2nd with this carb despite being a mech secondary. At full extension it was giving 1.400” @ WOT which matches the Sonnax suggestion better.

I have not double checked my pressure readings for this 2nd carb since it had the preset throttle arm I thought I was good but it is still soft shifting, actually I think even softer just when I thought that was not possible.

Again you can see this forum where I have been trying to chase engine power issues coupled with how this trans just does not seem to perform well: https://www.stevesnovasite.com/threads/help-diagnosing-performance-crate-engine-runs-ok-but-fairly-stock-bottom-end-mid-and-peak-power.673177/page-3#post-5902418

Trans has a 2k converter and I got a 2800 converter I just ordered but have not yet installed it.

No idea about the 2004-R governor I have, I expect in the long run I will need to modify it to shift later than around 3200 RPM. Open to suggestions on shift RPM and what exactly to do to the governor to get that with the least drops of the pan. I did have it out to get my speedo internal gear right, I know it has at least 1 spring in it, might have 2 but I forget. Didn't realize at the time that that mechanism affects shift points or I may have guessed and checked without a spring to get this project going since surely it needed less spring than a 91 Caprice.

[TexasT]

Welcome to the site. As you are finding out the 2004r is a mysterious unit and has many different calibrations from the factory. And being that the last one that was in a stock gm vehicle rolled out about thirty yrs ago there is no telling if it is stock or has been modified and what was modified or swapped in there. 

The 3200 shift point is probably where the factory set it. Getting it to where you want to be will require some work. Just swapping a governor from a performance unit is rarely the answer as the VB and governor are a set and doing so could make it worse. Up side is it could easy be swapped back. Better is to get a VB and gov combo from a performance unit and install as a set. Not as easy and cheap but gives a starting point to work from that will most likely be way closer to the shift points you want while retaining the part throttle shift points that are not all over the place. This is why the performance cores are more costly than the regular ones out of the olds and such. 

What other mods did the unit get when overhauled? Boost valve, rev boost valve springs and such? What about the accumulators where they spring swapped as with the sloppy shift I doubt either was blocked.

Let us know and we can try to help. 

[1 RARE T]

Do your bank account, and your mental health a favor and just buy a 2004R from a vendor.

The dicking around trying to get it right isn't gonna be worth it.

[wmsonta]

KenBean-I read part of your thread on the Nova forum. IMO, you have more issues than trans.

Apparently, 175-180# compression @ 9-10 in vacuum with initial+mechanical advance = 40*? Changing cam timing w/o verification? I may post picture related.

The trans pressure is close enough to have some longevity. Time to work though some of this.

If pump gas, you should reduce total advance yesterday. JMHO.

[wmsonta]

KenBean-
 Changing cam timing w/o verification? I may post picture related.

[Scoobum]

Wouldn't surprise me if that was a major issue wmsonta is referring too. I know 2 of the locals who had Stage cars with the cams retarded. Their cars were turds. I mentioned if they had checked, but I was told I didn't know anything. 

[wmsonta]

with the cams retarded. 

Another discussion of generic cars on a turbo Buick board.

I have been involved with a number of dedicated race motors that required retarded cam timing to keep from bending all of the exh valves. If you do not know valve to piston clearance, where the cam is timed or what the cam is, you probably should not arbitrarily advance the camshaft. Especially with borderline high street compression. If your timing set is reliable enough to trust and you advance it 4*, was the cam cut 4* advanced? A lot are. You are now 8* advanced and need .080 min exhaust to piston clearance for race. Street, I want .100"

Brag incoming. The 360 in that picture is 100% pump gas/street. In a half ton Dodge, it went 11.85 @112. It now has 80k and its second set of valve springs. NA.

[nocooler]

IMO - the combo is just wrong. It looks like you bought an engine from an assembler, not a real builder. You should have had a build sheet with all the specs, bare minimum. I'd want to know where the piston is in relation to the deck. Then we could figure out things like quench and dynamic compression ratio. 
Low compression street sbc's don't make 400hp without some good heads on it. Basically, the pro comps you have aren't a great head but they can work with attention to detail. The cam/intake is a huge miss-match IMO. That's a bracket cam and a low-rise dual plane. Decide what you want before you spend any more money. 

[wmsonta]

KenBean- if you would like to check true cam timing, it can be done without any disassembly or pulling the engine. The split overlap method. Widely used method until about the late '60's. You would need a piston stop to verify true TDC. I can walk you though it. It involves pulling one valve cover.

I have read more of the Nova board post, because of the election and have no fault with some of the advise there.

The cam is apparently 232*/232* @ .050 on a 112 CL. With your exhaust this is large enough to disguise wiped flat tappet lobes on startup. Not uncommon.

At 275 hp, something is wrong. I have an all GM smog 350 (7.8 to 1, 194*/202* on a 112) that makes 260. Aftermarket dist, intake, headers, exhaust. Almost 20 in vacuum.

[KenBean]

I did use a degree wheel and piston stop when I reset the timing/crank gear and I think it checks out. Was about 1 degree retarded so its now about 3-4 advanced. I was wondering about impact concerns myself but the lift on the cam was apparently not of concern for that based on the forum help I got. The cam change might have helped a little, but not really sure. The biggest change that was night and day was the intake, it was a speedmaster dual plane low rise and wouldn't dream of braking traction off the line, with the Weiand on it can certainly break traction from a start, and then swapping the 670VS for the SS650 mechanical I do think off the line is better. Is the split-overlap method redundant to what I did or is it testing something else? Regarding HP/Torque low at around 275, with this intake I put on it is up on one or both of those some for sure but I am not sure its worth the $ for a dyno check/tune just to post a number, but I am curious.

Pump gas is 91 or 93, I can set the timing to something else easily enough, this is what one fella suggested. The engine guy said advance it until it pings and back it off some. I prefer a number to set to, but I understand the keep advancing it tactic can get you to peak power.

It was basically dark when I got to look at it tonight but I noted last night reading somewhere that I need to see if the trans PSI instantly started to rise with pedal application or if it lagged, checked tonight and it was lagging. SO I reset the TV ratchet device and reset the pull, its tight at WOT but it gets there. With it like this the psi rises immediately with pedal application. Again, it was dark, but it hits 2nd better. I think it shifted at a bit over 4k, so that was welcome and new. I need to mess with it in daylight more so my neighbors don't want to kill me. I will try to get a video of the Tach and trans PSI under acceleration and normal driving so I can focus on driving then focus on watching. Its hard to be safe driving and read at the same time at night, but the preliminary is I think its up to 120 or 150 when it hits 2nd but then at some point later, perhaps in 3rd gear while still accelerating the PSI is literally all over the place, going from low to high really fast, If I had to guess down to 100 up to 200. This seems odd, but I am not sure what the PSI is suppose do to under accelerating load and could not find anyone with a video. Is there a way to post a video here, otherwise I may be able to figure out a youtube post. Since these trans are so finicky it would be great to have a vid showing idle PSI in all gears, WOT PSI in all gears, a demo of how a slight push of the pedal should get the PSI increasing, as well as moderate/normal accel as well as WOT accel to show what PSI does at each shift (of a car with ideal RPM shifts would be nice but i guess RPM can vary some without impact to performance).

About wiped flat tappets......I did not open the filter after break in (insert face palm smile here) but I did change that oil/filter. I did cut the filter open after the initial 500mi and it had some paint flecks, bits of small dirt, and some small shavings, oil itself was dirty for sure. I figure nothing that looked scary for the initial but IDK. Is there a way to verify if lobes are wiped, I think the #1 cyl seems to check out with the degree wheel to spec lift.

Vacuum at 1k RPM is 12-13 inHg and ISKY indicated that was about right for the cam. They said they want to know vacuum at 1k, the 9-10 inHg is at 7-800RPM which is where I have the idle set.

[KenBean]

Welcome to the site. As you are finding out the 2004r is a mysterious unit and has many different calibrations from the factory. And being that the last one that was in a stock gm vehicle rolled out about thirty yrs ago there is no telling if it is stock or has been modified and what was modified or swapped in there.

The 3200 shift point is probably where the factory set it. Getting it to where you want to be will require some work. Just swapping a governor from a performance unit is rarely the answer as the VB and governor are a set and doing so could make it worse. Up side is it could easy be swapped back. Better is to get a VB and gov combo from a performance unit and install as a set. Not as easy and cheap but gives a starting point to work from that will most likely be way closer to the shift points you want while retaining the part throttle shift points that are not all over the place. This is why the performance cores are more costly than the regular ones out of the olds and such.

What other mods did the unit get when overhauled? Boost valve, rev boost valve springs and such? What about the accumulators where they spring swapped as with the sloppy shift I doubt either was blocked.

Let us know and we can try to help.

Well, I guess I should have spent a bit extra and gotten one from a performance builder, but that did not pan out nicely with the engine builder. I had it rebuilt to handle 400HP, so along with that was supposed to come better than stock parts since many folks indicate these are underbuilt if stock. The following is basically what was done to the rebuild: "It will handle 450 to 500 horsepower. I replace the sunshell and stator shaft with heavy duty hardened components, and I rebuild the rest of the transmission with Raybestos Pro-series clutches, TTK seal and gaskets, new filter, 10 vane pump, and shift improvement modifications." Here is his site: https://www.kellinperformancetrans.com

Is there a code on the VB I can look at?

Can VB's be modified manually, if so I should ask the trans guy what he thought/did as he worked on it. (See my other post tonight, it may be shifting later now....more later when I can test it under better conditions).

The trans came out of a car with vin:1G1BU54E9LR135 681. The converter was #CG6F, I think that is like 1300 stall. The tag on the trans tail is yellow and says   CT____F in big letter on the first line, stamped along bottom of tag it says in smaller print 305-901CTF0552. But a valve body could have been swapped regardless of all that. It did have a 13big/14small toothed "Drive" speedo gear that is a light yellow/tan color, I installed one to match my 3.42&tires.

[ULYCYC]

I wont go into what was done in the past but just some basics.  If a car  has a fouled plug or troubled cylinder  advancing the cam will make the car feel better because your operating in the lower power band of the camshaft.  99% of the time setting the cam straight up fits most applications unless you have a 1/8 mile track or you build for a round D round track. Once you find and fix the problems your car will now seem dead on top end or at top of your shift points.
Small blocks like higher rpms to make power. I would make sure your converter is built for a that. I would say 3200 stall would be a good start for street/strip. You can re calibrate the governor to shift at wot to around 5000rpms. I believe TCI sells the spring and you may have to grind the weights a little to lighten them up unless you can find a BRF governor. I pulled mine 4 times before I got it to shift at 5800rpms
With the lousy gas these days I would keep total timing under 35deg. I would go over the timing again. The performance distributors come with extra weights and springs to custom curve the advance, this can help a lot.   Also check for a strong spark at each plug.
Make sure your fuel pressure is set for what your carb recommend, Usually 4-6lbs. Use a inline regulator and good gauge. I assume you have a basic street/strip pump.  They look pretty but 1000 hp pumps overheat and limp if there is no place to send the fuel unless you setup a return system.
You listed a trans shop in Delaware. If your around Maryland, Anderson Performance would be a good shop to help solve your issues. Billy is a long time Buick friend builder racer.  He works on and builds all cars. 

[wmsonta]

I did use a degree wheel and piston stop when I reset the timing/crank gear and I think it checks out. .............. .............. Is the split-overlap method redundant to what I did or is it testing something else?

Completely redundant. I would move on.

Regarding HP/Torque low at around 275, with this intake I put on it is up on one or both of those some for sure but I am not sure its worth the $ for a dyno check/tune just to post a number, but I am curious.

I would not dyno again. Just me.

Pump gas is 91 or 93, I can set the timing to something else easily enough, this is what one fella suggested. The engine guy said advance it until it pings and back it off some. I prefer a number to set to, but I understand the keep advancing it tactic can get you to peak power.

I am with ED. I disagree any modern pump gas street car should have total advance greater than 35. Not counting vacuum advance. You should, IMO, pay attention to Ed's views on gas pressure. In my world, no Holley should be ran above 6#. A pair of the smallest Holley n/s (.097) will support 390 hp @ 6#.

reading somewhere that I need to see if the trans PSI instantly started to rise with pedal application... .............. .......... going from low to high really fast, If I had to guess down to 100 up to 200. This seems odd, but I am not sure what the PSI is suppose do to under accelerating load

This is what I want to see. Low pressure at idle. With perceptible throttle, it JUMPS to 90# min. Adjust the TV to this. Street/strip trans should continue to rise to about 190# or slightly more. Anything close. At least you have measured pressure. I like constant 200-240# for dedicated race.

About wiped flat tappets...... Is there a way to verify if lobes are wiped,

What I would do. Set idle with curb idle screw to about 1200 rpm. Put a vacuum gauge and check for bounce. Check again in 1k miles. No bounce does not mean you are not wiping lobe(s). It will mean that this is not the missing power.

Vacuum at 1k RPM is 12-13 inHg and ISKY indicated that was about right for the cam. They said they want to know vacuum at 1k, the 9-10 inHg is at 7-800RPM which is where I have the idle set.

I agree with all. With that info, I would not have got involved with cam timing. I would not allow idle below 1000. Aftermarket flat tappet.
I did not read your lengthy post on the other board and will have limited time to respond here.....I would be looking for 50+ hp, good luck.

[Scoobum]

Something's horribly wrong. Here's the worst combo...suppos edly...on the planet I had in my Z28. I slid a bigass cam in it to give it the 'sound'. Stock torque convertor, 3;23 gears, dual plane intake and a 600 vacuum secondary Holley and stock heads and true dual exhaust. Jetting was out of the box, and all I did was set the idle screws. How did it work? It blew the tires off it the entire length of the grandstand. I jumped the initial timing a couple degrees and that was it. It's the one car I wish I hadn't sold.

[wmsonta]

Something's horribly wrong.

It is going to be ignition. Losing that much power. Probably a large cap oem style HEI. It would probably need to be new to the owner. No history.

The last serious ignition problem I dealt with lost 200-250 hp. Owner said it ran well but was down on power. After the repair, it went from 12.4 to 10.05. 383 sbc, about 600-640 hp, NA. Car had went 10.35 before.

Without access to an inductive KV meter, Ken's easiest test would be to swap to a known good distributor.

edit-or the wheel dyno missed by a lot. Not impossible.