Mustangs - they're not just for breakfast anymore
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Seems a bit complicated for a Shout Box discussion Once the technology has been discussed, it seems to me that the next logical progression is practical application. Pros and cons of vertical vs Horizontal tubes. End tank design vs practical application of said design on a given platform. Large tubes vs smaller tubes with regard to cooling via expansion within the tubes vs surface cooling or convection against packaging constraints, etc.And, practically, is there any difference given packaging restraints-is there really any significant, demonstrable, gains to be achieved thru design over current available designs ?Sorry, I got lost in my mind on this one...Dr Pepper has not taken effect yet this morning
THE INTERCOOLER ARTICLE IS FINALLY DONE!!https://www.boostedrps.com/single-post/2018/07/21/Intercooler-Core-Design-and-Effects-A-Guide-to-Evaluating-Various-IntercoolersPlease let me know what you guys think!!
Quote from: BoostedRPS on July 21 2018, 09:10:40 AMTHE INTERCOOLER ARTICLE IS FINALLY DONE!!https://www.boostedrps.com/single-post/2018/07/21/Intercooler-Core-Design-and-Effects-A-Guide-to-Evaluating-Various-IntercoolersPlease let me know what you guys think!!That is a serious amount of effort - now just wait for the witch-hunt to begin and the excuse train to leave the station.Per my post above, nearly every TurboBuick (or G-body for that matter) I have ever seen running a FMIC has little to no ducting or sealing around the core to force air through it. So while it is very nice to dissect the end tanks, charge pipe configuration, and internal and external fin designs - what does it matter if the air just flows around it? Moreover what about the need for negative pressure behind the core to accommodate effective heat exchange especially when you start considering race-only (small radiators and no A/C) vs. street cars (with A/C condensers and larger more efficient radiators) applications? I'd also suggest that there is something to be gained or lost with air flow across the core relative to speed as the pressure around the sealed or unsealed core backs up or is bled off, respectively. An unsealed core in a 11 second car may stand to gain a lot from sealing at all speeds, where an 8 second race car might only see gains at low speeds. The MCSS did this from the factory, as did the Regals with some rubbery flaps that get binned with every FMIC install - followed by: durr durr why am I over heating now?https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/pressure-drop-across-radiator-and-air-flow.322604/Basically, all the fancy engineering in the world isn't going to matter once a shade-tree mechanic slaps it together and starts making compromises out of sheer laziness and ignorance. Hell, I did this on my own Buick - but, that was 18 years ago and I was just 21 years old at the time.The attached picture is your typical eBay intercooler laid flat with a sealed scoop in my TBSS, there is a large negative pressure area behind the core. Very similar concept to what came on the TRs from the factory - but, completely divorced from any sources of radiant heat (radiator, engine, A/C condenser, tranny or PS coolers, etc) and it doesn't have a hot lump of iron directly behind it. IATs are a few degrees above ambient since it isn't saturated by heat or ignorance. Plus, it doesn't impact my safety (bumper bars or structural frame components aren't cut out) or cooling or A/C performance; as is the accepted TBSS practice. Accept practices. Ah yes, those. Contributing to vendor bias and recipes since the dawn of time. I'd say that if you were going to market a product or service it would include a complete solution including a properly sealed FMIC core. But, you are going to need data... because like advanced stats in baseball and hockey they are the branches clung to with finger tips by consumers and nut-swingers alike - and by extension ruin everything.Pit a sealed cheap eBay core against as like sized unsealed top-o-the-line FMIC and determine the IAT deviation; and then consider if the cost-benefit analysis justifies the expense on top-end parts in a standard street car application.
Definitely not suggesting the witch-hunt or excuses were expected from you - just those vendors who use products with the less than ideal characteristic s you've highlighted. I honestly appreciate your efforts.I am in the middle of sweating my bag off shoveling rocks and dirt under my deck right now so I will revisit this later - if I am not in the ER recovering from heat stroke.
Quote from: motorhead on July 21 2018, 10:23:25 AMQuote from: BoostedRPS on July 21 2018, 09:10:40 AMTHE INTERCOOLER ARTICLE IS FINALLY DONE!!https://www.boostedrps.com/single-post/2018/07/21/Intercooler-Core-Design-and-Effects-A-Guide-to-Evaluating-Various-IntercoolersPlease let me know what you guys think!!That is a serious amount of effort - now just wait for the witch-hunt to begin and the excuse train to leave the station.Per my post above, nearly every TurboBuick (or G-body for that matter) I have ever seen running a FMIC has little to no ducting or sealing around the core to force air through it. So while it is very nice to dissect the end tanks, charge pipe configuration, and internal and external fin designs - what does it matter if the air just flows around it? Moreover what about the need for negative pressure behind the core to accommodate effective heat exchange especially when you start considering race-only (small radiators and no A/C) vs. street cars (with A/C condensers and larger more efficient radiators) applications? I'd also suggest that there is something to be gained or lost with air flow across the core relative to speed as the pressure around the sealed or unsealed core backs up or is bled off, respectively. An unsealed core in a 11 second car may stand to gain a lot from sealing at all speeds, where an 8 second race car might only see gains at low speeds. The MCSS did this from the factory, as did the Regals with some rubbery flaps that get binned with every FMIC install - followed by: durr durr why am I over heating now?https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/pressure-drop-across-radiator-and-air-flow.322604/Basically, all the fancy engineering in the world isn't going to matter once a shade-tree mechanic slaps it together and starts making compromises out of sheer laziness and ignorance. Hell, I did this on my own Buick - but, that was 18 years ago and I was just 21 years old at the time.The attached picture is your typical eBay intercooler laid flat with a sealed scoop in my TBSS, there is a large negative pressure area behind the core. Very similar concept to what came on the TRs from the factory - but, completely divorced from any sources of radiant heat (radiator, engine, A/C condenser, tranny or PS coolers, etc) and it doesn't have a hot lump of iron directly behind it. IATs are a few degrees above ambient since it isn't saturated by heat or ignorance. Plus, it doesn't impact my safety (bumper bars or structural frame components aren't cut out) or cooling or A/C performance; as is the accepted TBSS practice. Accept practices. Ah yes, those. Contributing to vendor bias and recipes since the dawn of time. I'd say that if you were going to market a product or service it would include a complete solution including a properly sealed FMIC core. But, you are going to need data... because like advanced stats in baseball and hockey they are the branches clung to with finger tips by consumers and nut-swingers alike - and by extension ruin everything.Pit a sealed cheap eBay core against as like sized unsealed top-o-the-line FMIC and determine the IAT deviation; and then consider if the cost-benefit analysis justifies the expense on top-end parts in a standard street car application.I felt like I addressed the need to have adequate flow to the radiator in the article. Maybe not in incredible depth, but I felt like I at least made it known that you need to make sure that the airflow to the radiator is still cold enough to help remove heat from it, and have enough volume of airflow to make a difference.Boxing in the intercooler would definitely help, but not at the expense of causing a reduction in flow to the radiator.
The reason I did not discuss boxing in the fmic in the article is because a vertical flow core, which I felt like I alluded to being the superior core, would have a large portion of the core exposed in the grille of the car, even with 3" end tanks on top, removing 3" of space from the grille area that could have been core area if it was a horizontal flow core.A vertical flow core should still have at least 60-75% of the core directly behind the grille, if my memory serves me correct for the height at which the fmic's are mounted.With about 3/4's of the core being exposed in the grille, I felt that the topic of boxing in the core wasn't really pertinent..... plus my article isn't really about maximizing an existing intercooler installation, but rather the various aspects of an intercooler, the technology used in an intercooler, and what to look for in an intercooler.Vertical flow cores, unless the top end tank is huge and drops the core down low, should have a large portion of the core exposed in the grille area because of how small the actual core area is.
Personally I can't visualize how you would mount a guide for air to the bottom portion of the core (that could support 1,000hp+) that is secured enough to withstand the forces of airflow at high mph.
I'm not sure how something like that would look and where it would mount that could take 140mph passes.
As for data....we'll be using my Bell core design on my engine when we run it on Duttweiler's engine dyno, seeking for 1,500hp (I'd really like to hit 1,600 if I'm honest). I'll sure to log the MAP pressure in and out of the core.
Once my engine is in the car, we'll be making the mounts and piping for the smaller Bell core, so that we can finally advertise these cores for sale. Before we do sell them, we already have people waiting for us to finish the mounts and piping so that they can test these cores (We have two Treadstone cores we are developing as well) and log the pressure drop across the core, and the thermal efficiency as well.
Keep up the good work. I'm looking forward to the write up on the Holley tuning classes. Surely you will be able to make money doing that to peoples cars.
