Turbo Tweak GN ECU

[TexasT]

These tr6 coils, are they set up like the ing1a coil on/near plug? Or is it more like the stock setup with the stock coil and box to fire ccci thing?

The coil setup on the 3.1(off topic engine) doesn't seem to take much to fire it as I think it is a plate, three two "conductor" coils and a module that plugs in that I think has four conductors. Doesn't seem too complicated but I don't really know as I plug it in and It works on that car. Though it gives missfire code and a check engine light sometimes.

Pretty interesting stuff.

[nocooler]

I figured that’s what it was Jason - I was just messing with you! Hope the ignition is a simple fix!

[good2win22]

Yesterday I wired up the coil on plug to run the ignition system from the ECU. That's right, no more TR6. Although I'm still using the TR6 box as a mount for the coils at the moment. Quick chat with Bob, a few ignition settings changed on the software, and car started right up. Need to re-verify timing this morning since the settings changed and then make a few test passes. Big bonus is now being able to use the dwell table among other features. Hoping this remedies the ignition issue, if not, a hot wire via a relay to power the coils next.

[Steve Wood]

We'll keep our fingers crossed!  I hope that does the trick

[wmsonta]

You will have to pardon me. I should be as dumb as a sack of hammers, with modern stuff.

Are you dealing with the symptoms of coil over-saturation?

[good2win22]

You will have to pardon me. I should be as dumb as a sack of hammers, with modern stuff.

Are you dealing with the symptoms of coil over-saturation?

Yes sir. Under load at peak demand, I’m getting a misfire. My TR6 didn’t get hot and the voltage strip didn’t de-bond from the board like Larry’s did but it has happened to others and it always seems to be at higher rpm’s. When you install a TR6, you get a 25 amp fuse to replace the 10 amp fuse in the CCCI circuit. Most folks don’t realize the load on the 30+ year old wiring. I have a newer Casper’s engine harness installed on my car but the coils are power hungry. Being able to control them a bit more precisely and with a bit more voltage is the plan

[wmsonta]

"I’m getting a misfire"
First, I believe you should take the following as food for thought, not gospel. My experience is apples to your oranges.

When I run into this, it is NA. Symptoms are the same as valve float. Breaks up at higher RPM, WFO. Severe cases stop accelerating. If I know the valve springs are good, I usually try to convince the owner to reduce the plug gap. Any improvement will indicate over-saturation. No improvement does not rule it out. I have not seen saturation problems with less than 7 amps supplied to the coil/s. In my world, if you do not need that MSD-7x box,do not use it even if free.What gap do you use and how much boost?

Valve float=the inability to keep the intake valve from bouncing off the seat after closing. The 206 and 212 Comp lobes common in signatures here, have been around since at least the early 1980's. I am somewhat familiar with dozens of them. They are ground on oem quality cam cores which necessitates Comp's recommendation of 90-95# of seat pressure.A 1.77" valve will have about 2.45 sq in area. At 25 pounds per sq in boost, it is about 60# trying to hold the valve off the seat. Combine that with the minimum seat pressure I require and arrive at your own conclusions. I require 110# min seat pressure from 6000-6500. 125# min from 6500-7000. Heavy valve train and hyd rollers require more pressure.What rpm are you trying to turn?

If you determine over-saturation is your problem, I would start trying to find the path to ground. Early HEI distributors at high rpm (NA) with module controlled dwell/aftermarket coils were lucky to get to 5k rpm w/o breaking up completely. I was able to cure most by replacing the rotor screws with nylon ones.

HTH, good luck.

[good2win22]

Good info!  Springs are known to be good although they may have weakened a bit in the last year. I'm looking to go through the 1/4 mile traps between 6-6300 rpm. This cam has XFI lobes and are a bit on the aggressive side. Went through a big nut roll a while back with this cam and spring pressures.


The TR6 has a some known issues when it comes to misfiring at higher rpms and higher boost levels. Just trying to sort it out and share what comes of it. A little help from you guys never hurts either!

[TexasT]

Maybe pull a spring or two and do some pressure testing.
As suggested, maybe a smaller plug gap to see if that might help.
Are there logs of the runs gettin broken up? I guess the tunerstudio will allow it to be seen if you are comfortable posting it.
I guess you got the trans under control to do the shifts where you wanted?

Keep up the good work on the wagon. It is looking GOOD!

[wmsonta]

Will this thing pull full rpm @ light load?

There is a guy who I have known for yrs, although I am not involved in any way. I have walked around his truck. He buys complete motors and the builder has great support. It is a blown methanol big inch hemi. Above 2800 hp. About 55# boost. He runs a 10 amp magneto. Plug gap is .016-.018.

One of my theories, coil over-sat is further aggravated by the inability to empty the previous charge due to high resistance. No proof.

I have a V8 air compressor. The pass side head is a 2-cycle air pump. 302 Ford. 100 cfm @ 100psi. The distributor is oem V8, with 8 trigger events for the remaining 4 cyl. If the 4 unused plug wires are not grounded the motor will be unable to take load and run smooth. It will break up before the governed 3200 rpm.

All of this to get here. If reducing plug gap does not allow some amount of higher rpm, I would look at a component issue. Probably where you are/have been already.

On a note, I would like to see you get away from increasing the voltage to your coils. Voltage does no work. The current from 12v @6 amps is exactly equal to 7amps @ 10.28 volts. Every 12v points ignition car ever produced was resisted down to 6-7 volts to the coil. My street car in 1971 went 9k rpm w/single points and single coil. Modified Production cars ran 1/4 mi w/6.50 gear and ran dual points/2 coils and reduced voltage to everything.

If you do not have @ 6 amps minimum to all coils, I would not expect another solution. If your Mean Effective Pressure is not exceptionally high, you should not need more than 6a.JMO

[good2win22]

Maybe pull a spring or two and do some pressure testing.
As suggested, maybe a smaller plug gap to see if that might help.
Are there logs of the runs gettin broken up? I guess the tunerstudio will allow it to be seen if you are comfortable posting it.
I guess you got the trans under control to do the shifts where you wanted?

Keep up the good work on the wagon. It is looking GOOD!

Plenty of logs. Here's a pic of the graph when it happens. Trans is doing great!

[good2win22]

Will this thing pull full rpm @ light load?

There is a guy who I have known for yrs, although I am not involved in any way. I have walked around his truck. He buys complete motors and the builder has great support. It is a blown methanol big inch hemi. Above 2800 hp. About 55# boost. He runs a 10 amp magneto. Plug gap is .016-.018.

One of my theories, coil over-sat is further aggravated by the inability to empty the previous charge due to high resistance. No proof.

I have a V8 air compressor. The pass side head is a 2-cycle air pump. 302 Ford. 100 cfm @ 100psi. The distributor is oem V8, with 8 trigger events for the remaining 4 cyl. If the 4 unused plug wires are not grounded the motor will be unable to take load and run smooth. It will break up before the governed 3200 rpm.

All of this to get here. If reducing plug gap does not allow some amount of higher rpm, I would look at a component issue. Probably where you are/have been already.

On a note, I would like to see you get away from increasing the voltage to your coils. Voltage does no work. The current from 12v @6 amps is exactly equal to 7amps @ 10.28 volts. Every 12v points ignition car ever produced was resisted down to 6-7 volts to the coil. My street car in 1971 went 9k rpm w/single points and single coil. Modified Production cars ran 1/4 mi w/6.50 gear and ran dual points/2 coils and reduced voltage to everything.

If you do not have @ 6 amps minimum to all coils, I would not expect another solution. If your Mean Effective Pressure is not exceptionally high, you should not need more than 6a.JMO

Yes it will go to 6000 rpm with a light load.  How do I know?  Pulled the tranny down into low gear and made what I will call an NA pull up to 6000 rpm and no hesitation. I did this to satisfy my concerns with the springs.  On a side note, talking with David Husek and he said he has seen lifters jump the lobe on cams with xfi lobes and not enough spring pressure.  Said he tore one down with a broken cam.  I can imagine there's quite a bit of force on the cam with a lifter landing on the backside of the lobe.


I could be completely wrong with today's ignition systems, but my understanding is that today's coils operate on battery system voltage and the computer controls the dwell time (we're taking milli-seconds) in between discharge cycles.  I believe the TR6 still fires the coil in a waste spark manner like the stock system, meaning the coil is firing on the compression stroke and the exhaust stroke on the same cylinder. Thus the heat build up and possible saturation.


Steve chime in and educate me

[Steve Wood]

These days, you educate me!

Remember, that under boost, the springs have to do a lot more work to close the valves than they do in an NA situation.  I really don't like the XFI lobes because they are pretty violent and valve springs don't last long. Rapid acceleration worsens the situation.

I agree with your assessment how the ignition works

[nocooler]

Jason - our old friend Scottie-gnz has been thru some of of this. He has some good info and wiring diagrams.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-induction/1890331-new-pb-8-629-158-56-a.html

You’ve got this!

[wmsonta]

"Yes it will go to 6000 rpm with a light load."


Good. You may or may not be into valve float. The OEM saw fit to install 85# springs on motors with hp peak of 4400 rpm. Most will go 5800-6000. Run smooth. They are probably in valve float at 5k.


 "he has seen lifters jump the lobe on cams with xfi lobes and not enough spring pressure."

You are describing lofting. I stopped using spring pressure to control lofting years ago and I was late to the party.


 "Said he tore one down with a broken cam.  I can imagine there's quite a bit of force on the cam with a lifter landing on the backside of the lobe."

If the cam broke, it is flat tappet. I have commented on the quality of cam cores here. Probably a Comp.

"I could be completely wrong with today's ignition systems, but my understanding is that today's coils operate on battery system voltage"


I will try one more time. You will have battery voltage at the starter. The same voltage can be found at your interior courtesy light. One needs 300+amps, the other needs 0.01amps. Swapping the two power sources will not work. Just because you have battery voltage to your coils, do you have  300+ amps or 0.01 amps? You said the coils were cold to the touch. If I had issues running and the coils were cold, I would verify proper current availability. Coils do not care about voltage at the supply.


"and the computer controls the dwell time (we're taking milli-seconds) in between discharge cycles."

Computers require voltage not amperage. I have the ability and tools to measure the quality (intensity and duration) of the spark and plug resistance on running engines. Sounds like you are talking about (C)apacitive (D)ischarge ignition. CD ignitions can present serious problems.

  "a waste spark manner like the stock system,"

Forget everything I said about the inability to empty the coil charge.