Steve-6.1 Question

[Scoobum]

just use a relay and hook the trigger side to the ignition

Any 12 volt relay at my parts store...or a certain amperage as well? Go easy on me...electrica l ain't my gig.

[Steve Wood]

Just a regular 30 amp relay for fog lights or such

[earlbrown]

just use a relay and hook the trigger side to the ignition

Any 12 volt relay at my parts store...or a certain amperage as well? Go easy on me...electrica l ain't my gig.

With less than a 3amp load, the biggest weakest POS you can find will be more than enough.



It's interesting that cold starts degrade a WB, yet they last 100,000 miles in a plain ole POS daily.

[earlbrown]

More info for 6.1 users. Below 140 grams per second the NB looks after everything. From 140-220 the WB kicks in for mid boost.

 Eric himself shuts off mid boost and lets the NB do its thing. I think I read a post from Eric saying the boost comes up so fast that the WB has a hard time tracking it.
 

That's interesting data. Since the NB does everything below 140, that means nothing should have changed when I turned off all my WB correction...     But it ran much different.  A lot less knock but I still have a severe lean dip when I first give it a little gas.


That's the bad thing about the 6.1.  It's designed to be in charge with an almost 'idiot proof' angle to it.     Which NEVER works with me. I just can't do idiot proof. 


I still think the data indicates I banged Murphy's wife in the past.

[Scoobum]

Earl, I have a locals car here doing almost the same thing. KR with the WB on is intermittent from 2.x to 7.x at WOT. Turn the WB off and it is intermittent 1.x to 2.x KR. Fuel pump is fairly new...which makes me think maybe the alky pump is getting weak...just a guess. He's installing an in car fuel pressure gauge and hooking it into PL. Like you, I don't understand why the WB KR is higher than NB KR. He has an AEM UEGO WB setup. Supposedly it doesn't have to be calibrated. The WB sensor is either good or bad.

[Steve Wood]

Not sure if it has anything to do with your problems, but...

Last year, William's car running the AEM WB would always show a very high number in the blm box...usually be up in the 145 range at the line.  We would change position 4 to a high number and still it would come up with a large correction number in the box.

We checked fuel pressure, flow, got Eric to reburn the chip thinking the 6262 and other things were just flowing more air than he anticipated, etc.

The NB readings were not unreasonable and the wb numbers at wide open throttle did not look that bad either at the end, but were showing a lot of correction early on.

One day, I was laying in my recliner dreaming of the fifties and the thought went thru my mind that the prior year he had put some race gas in the tank when the car was not running right.  I got him to buy a new sensor and immediately, the correction factor in the blm dropped way down.

Now, we are all supposed to know that the Bosch sensors don't tolerate high temperatures (which we get from high boost), and they don't tolerate lead very long.  That's why FAST and others use an NTK sensor.

Now, NTK reportedly does not like high pressure and will read off under high pressure but, we put our sensors after the turbo so high pressure (high back pressure) does not come into play-unless some one jams a couple of potatoes in the tail pipes.  We did that in the fifties....

Unlike many, I am not convinced that the PLX set up is all that great compared to others either....with the Bosch sensor or any other option...but I could be wrong.  But, I would not bet on it

[Scoobum]

Like Eric says. Keep an eye on the correction factor...and you'll know the WB sensor is beginning to fail. No different than watching the 02's or CC counts beginning to slow...you know the NB is on its way out. Or rewind a few months when the idle BLM's rose in my car...ended up the 02 sensor took a dump. As soon as you see a variance from the norm...then something's up. If you're gonna race one of these cars...everyth ing has to be perfect. Close ain't good enuf.

[Steve Wood]

problem in this case was that the sensor had started to fail before he went to the 6.1 chip so there was no datum point to refer to.

[earlbrown]

If that's my case I don't have a starting point.   I hate to shotgun my WB just for the hellovit.  I guess I can.  It would fall under Murphys law that I need a new WB sensor since I have like 30 Denso NB sensors here.

Today should be the last day of out cold snap but I still don't have a working tablet to data log.


Right now my WB is consistent and not erratic.   I was just going to tune for whatever A/F reading runs best.   I don't care if the W/B thinks I'm 21:1 at WOT.    I have a feeling the chip won't let me deviate that far though.
 

This kinda crap reminds me of how people obsess over the numerical reading of the boost gauge.  I give two craps about the number, I just want to be 2 PSI less than knock.   If my boost gauge had a cow, a pencil, and a mononpoly shoe...   I'd wanna be just shy of the shoe every time I floor it.

[Scoobum]

For those with 6.1. Eric says if you put in the wrong WB setting...just put the correct one in...and it'll follow the correct target for the file(s). No need to make a new run.

[earlbrown]

Like you, I don't understand why the WB KR is higher than NB KR. He has an AEM UEGO WB setup. Supposedly it doesn't have to be calibrated. The WB sensor is either good or bad.

Actually it makes sense.   Before WB correction we trusted the chip burner to get close then adjusted fuel pressure, or chip fueling for a open loop WOT blast.   Back then that was what we called 'tuning'.


Fast forward to WB correction..    Now we're closed loop and the NB sensor is the crazy uncle that talks but doesn't get listened to anymore.
  If the WB reads rich as hell (but isn't) it'll start pulling fuel...   If that extra leanness causes knock, that will explain why the WB knock is worse than with the correction turned off.

Right now I suspect my WB is wrong and saying my car is richer than it is.   I broke down an replaced my active GM 02 with a brand new Denso just to see.  It's pretty obvious that my WB and NB are not on the same page.   So I think my crazy uncle is right and my PLX is feeding the ECM bad data.  When I turn off the correction, the car runs better because I keep my 6.1 from running with correction, and that kinda verifies my theory of bad intel. (I'd be nice if I had a working computer to log my theory)


I did notice the other day my scanmaster voltage was reading much lower than battery voltage. That makes no sense to me unless the ECM has a flaky ground or the orange wire is compromised somewhere after the battery connection.  I'm pretty sure the scanmaster reports ECM voltage, not in car power voltage.


What I might do today is monitor Scanmaster NB voltage, and WB at the same time.  When I drove the car last I was crusing at 12 to 10 to 1 on WB and about .300 to .400V NB.   A simple throttle chop and coast into the drive should tell the tale..    The plugs will come out clean as hell, or black as the cavity where my heart used to be.

[Scoobum]

Reading and the PL files I've looked at I've come to the conclusion if you have a good NB and WB sensor...the WB sensor is calibrated...a nd you picked the correct WB from the list Eric gives you...then all should be well. Saving a couple of bucks buying a used 5.7 or 6.1 chip burned for someone elses combination prolly isn't a good idea.

[Forzfed]

If you think of proportional band, the narrow band has a small(narrow band) and the wide band a larger(wide) band of reading capability. Here is an interesting link.

http://www.enginebasics.com/EFI%20Tuning/AF%20Ratio%20Basics.html

[Scoobum]

Thanks for the link.

[earlbrown]

If you think of proportional band, the narrow band has a small(narrow band) and the wide band a larger(wide) band of reading capability. Here is an interesting link.

http://www.enginebasics.com/EFI%20Tuning/AF%20Ratio%20Basics.html

Actually the NB isn't a 'band' at all. It's a switch.  It only knows and reports 'yes/no' (and it's not really that good at it).

The only thing is knows if 14.7:1.   It can only report above or below.

When the voltage varies, that's a product of EGT.

So if a working NB reports low voltage non-stop, you're lean.  And the inverse is true, as of you're constantly showing high voltage, you're rich.   BUT, you have no idea of the actual A/F ratio.