Repair or Rebuild Stock Transmisssion

[bryes]

Background:

First a little background information to get everyone up to speed. In my Newbie thread I was able to successfully rebuild the engine that was bad in the GN I bought. Not too long after I got the car going (with a lot of help from Steve and the other guys on this site), I lost my job in Georgia and had to move back to Ohio.

In late October of 2014, I successfully towed the car 800 miles to Ohio, the weather was nice and it was dry the entire way. That is until a sudden popup deluge drenched me and the car while I unloaded it off the uhaul trailer. Well the next morning the car was still wet, so I decided the best way to dry it was to take it for one last ride before tucking it in for a long (really long!) Ohio winter.

About a quarter mile from my house is a nice stop sign, just asking for a wot blast. This was probably the first time I had run the car in cooler air, and with 17 psi of boost, the little six felt strong as it shifted from 1st to second. Sometimes the tires would break loose a little, but this time they stuck. The car surged forward, but faltered instantaneouslyy with an audible bang. I remember the odd helpless feeling of a car decelerating while I was still flooring the gas! After lifting off the throttle, the car coasted to a stop.

Symptoms:

So currently the symptom of my transmission, as had been mentioned in the previous thread, is that it has 6 neutrals and a park.  Also I should mention that a gear whirring or whine sound are noticeable when idling or revving the engine. And as it turns out, the trans leaked a substantial amount of fluid on the ground over the winter. I did notice it leaking a little back in Georgia, which was one reason I decided to not drive it back (Lucky... maybe).

Pulling the trans:

I was able to pull out the trans in a few hours. The hardest part for me was loosening the top transmission line, that thing is a pain even with the trans tilted down after being dismounted. But overall not too bad of a job. The tag is in the first picture.

Disassembling the trans:

The problem was not obvious at first. I really thought it that the pump might have went bad because of the noise (coming from the front of the trans) and the fact that it was leaking fluid. I pulled the pump out and took it apart, and it looked fine to me. So I continued to dissect the transmission, taking enough pictures so I (think / hope) can get the thing back together.  I’ve only taken one other auto trans apart and have never put one back together, so I don’t know what the parts are called. But I pulled the first few assemblies out and didn’t see anything obvious. Then I had to pull out the valve body to remove a couple more… um doohickeys. I got the trans down to the point that I was relatively sure that everything else looked good to me (See middle two pictures below), so I left the back end together.
The problem:
Since all the stuff in the case seemed to be OK, at least to the untrained eye, I decided to take another look at the front end where the noise seemed to be coming from. Since I had already checked out the pump the only thing I hadn’t inspected thoroughly was the torque converter. I looked down in it and everything seemed OK. It seemed to engage with the pump properly, but then I put the input shaft into the converter and turned it… something immediately seemed off. It didn’t seem to be turning anything, I expected there to be some more mass there. Also when I turned the shaft it made some noise, a similar albeit much quieter facsimile of what I heard when still in the car. Still I couldn’t see anything by visual inspection, but I was convinced the converter was bad.
I decided to take the plunge and cut the converter apart to see what was going on internally. I didn’t have much to lose because, as was suspected, it was the wrong converter (stamped 5 all around the perimeter with no “D”) and made my car slug slow off the line. As you can see in the picture below, once it was opened I could see the problem. As can be seen in the final picture below, the teeth that engage in the input shaft were completely stripped out.

Decisions decisions:

Now is where I need some help. I believe I have hunted down a D5 locally that will fix my problem. I’m going to see it on Thursday and will buy it for 50 if nothing is obviously wrong. So my only dilemma is what I should do with the trans. One option is to put the thing back together and run it, since my car is mostly stock and I don’t have really big plans to modify it, this is how I am leaning right now. But I am open to fixing some weak links, upgrading etc. My financial situation is not good right now but is hopefully improving soon, so that will enter in.

Let me know what you think , all advice is welcome!

[larrym]

Got a pic of the stator support on the pump bet it's finished the splines on the stocker don't last long with horse power.

[bryes]

I have a picture but no way to upload it now. I've seen pictures of bad  stator support shafts and mine Looks OK to me. My car is basically stock. I just wonder if the splines on a d5 converter are made out of a harder material than what that converter was. Who knows what that converter was out of but it stalled at like 900 rpm .

[TexasT]

That converter shop that cut that converter couldn't restall and freshen the converter you have?

As cheap as the stator support, a pair of hard rings, a stiffer slide spring, drilling out the pump drainback, maybe some vb plate mods and spring swapping in the vb. If you have access to a lathe or grinder cut the od piston .080 and pit in an additional od clutch plate between the steel that don't have one in between. A paper and rubber kit and maybe some new clutches(i like the red raybestos stage 1 that I put in the direct) tans in the rest.I inspected the steels and didn't find them to have any black or blue spots so I hit them with some Emory cloth and made a cross hatch pattern on them and the drum. Maybe a carbon band and a billet pin.

You see how this can get out of hand.
Let me know if you want more suggestions.

[bryes]

I'm not sure that I want the hack that cut that thing anywhere close to my transmission!

GOOD NEWS!

Before I eluded to the fact that my financial situation may be improving. Well I had an interview yesterday and I've received word that I will be getting the position. Seeing that I FINALLY (since sept 18th) have some sort of cash flow,  the options for the transmission have opened up. As I see it now, since my finances should be better, there are two plans that are up for discussion.

Plan A:

Spend whatever it takes (1k est.) to completely rebuild my current trans using the Texas T approach as outlined in has Previous post.

Pros: No wasted effort. Original trans is in the car.
Cons: Car is down for extended period of time.

Plan B:
Put the build on hold and reassemble the trans as is with a D5. Find a core 200-R4 to do the build to.

Pros: Car is not down for extended time. Can really take my time. Good excuse to go to swap meets.
Cons: Overall more work, wasted effort. Original trans will be out of car once complete. 2 trannys and more junk lying around.


I'm really leaning toward Plan B now because I'd really like to have the car for the spring and summer and once I start this new position, I won't have much time to work on it.  Additionally, since my car is almost stock,  my thought is that I'd be OK for a long time. 

Could I be overestimating the scope of rebuilding the trans?? Don't forget that it took me a couple of years to do the motor!

Let me know what you guys think. Also maybe I could do a couple of quickies (Stator shaft?? Fwd drum??) with plan B....ideally I'd like to get it done before Monday.

[TexasT]

While I have the original case( no internals), I went B because we were running a 700r4.

You already have it out and apart. Id buy a few parts and a rubber n paper kit and put it back together and in.

Mine took a while because I wasnt sure on a direction and what parts I wanted to use and the main reason I'm on a strict budget and had to save up to place he orders for parts.. Not that I'm any kind of guru, I do know what I bought and why I bought it.

[bryes]

Thanks, think I'll start down the plan b route as you suggest.

Today I talked with Vince Janis who is the local guru and explained my situation. He seemed like a really home guy and took a lot of time with me and his advice was very similar . He recommended that I replace the stator shaft, check the friction clearances and  accumulator spring and run it if all is well. He has all the parts in stock so that should make for a quick fix!
!!

[larrym]

You might want him to build the pump the stator surport typically needs the pump to be squared on a lathe and he can set you up wit a larger boost valve in the pump.

[bryes]

As it turns out my stator shaft was completely shot. The splines were completely stripped and ground down smooth enough that I didn't recognize the pem. In retrospect it was completely obvious, Janis saw it from about twenty feet away when I started to ask if I really had to replace it!

So far I'm into this thing for about 150. The seals were 20,converter 50,hardened shaft 60and now I just ordered fourth clutch thrust bearing for 30. Seems like a rip but mine had a small crack and I guess that supplies of those are tight. !

Frictions were all good but I did have to replace the pump bushing.

As far as the hardened shaft goes, can you better explain what might need remachined??  I have baby lathe that I could check it with maybe if I knew what to check.

I am waiting on parts now so I have some time to contemplate what else to do.

[bryes]

Below is a picture of my stator shaft compared to the new hardened one. Seems so obvious now 

The second picture is the bearing that was in the pump. It was fairly torn up.

Last is the other half of the converter.
 I'm not sure that you'll be able to see but there there are no "D" stamped , just a 5. But the five is offset as if the "D" Stamper was malfunctioning on the day it was made. Wonder if it wasn't a D5 after all???  My replacement D5 has the "D" stamped much lighter , you really have to look or you'll miss it.

[larrym]

I have never installed a stator support on a pump.
My understanding is that you have to ensure it is square to the pump. This means taking the pump apart and setting it up on the lathe by the stator support spinning the the pump half to see of it's square if not machine the face where the 2 haves meet to square it.
Personally I purchased a built pump to install in my rebuild, I would talk to Janis to confirm the procedure and how much for a pump already set up with the correct boost valves and the drain relived properly.

The pump is the heart of the transmission.

[Scoobum]

How's the sun gear?

[TexasT]

I bet v Janis laughed at you when you ask if you really needed to replace he stator support. When I did mine the new piece I bought required me to press that alignment pin out of the old and into the new. I read of drilling put the hole in the pin for better lube of the "mickey mouse" washer. O didn't do it but it is something to consider I guess.

I pressed the new stator support in and red locktited the pump bushing. I also staked it. It seems the newer pumps have a raised area to prevent the bushing from "walking" but I am using an 84 so mine didn't and I didn't want the bushing to move. I was also advised to get the Teflon coated pump bushing. Was a little more money but for a few dollars I splurged.

Drill the drain back hole.



I didn't grind on that piece. Many do, I just chose not to.
 
I put a pump seal retainer on as insurance.
http://www.bulkpart.com/2/product/200-4Rseals/74089.html

http://www.transmissionpartsusa.com/700R4_4L60E_Heavy_duty_pump_vane_rings_p/350-000035343.htm

As above you need a .500 boost valve

http://www.transmissionpartsusa.com/700R4_500_o_ring_style_T_V_boost_valve_kit_p/400-077917500.htm

Larger rev boost valve

http://www.transmissionpartsusa.com/700R4_Reverse_Boost_Valve_p/400-00k77898a.htm

And the spring that goes in there.

http://www.transmissionpartsusa.com/SONNAX_77917_08_700R4_Pressure_regulator_spring_p/400-007791708.htm

Tv spring for the tv valve. Maybe not needed but springs fatigue and this is pretty inexpensive.

http://www.transmissionpartsusa.com/700R4_TV_Plunger_Spring_1982_86_p/400-07796801k.htm

[TexasT]

http://s444.photobucket.com/user/texastandgransport/library/Transmission/Transgo%20Shift%20Improver

Link to the rest of the transgo instructions.


One other thing I was told after I put mine back together was the over pressure valve. It has a pin, spring and ball bearing . The pressure pushes on the ball and spring to act as a bypass when pressure goes too high. Apparently the spring rubs on the pin and after many cycles rubs through the spring. This can be a cause of buzzing and can spray fluid out the top trans vent tube. I was told to put a washer between the spring and pin it prevents the spring from getting rubbed on and breaking. When it breaks the trans pressure gets reduced ans trans clutch life suffers.

[bryes]

Thanks for the suggestions and links! I'm still considering my options. I'm still unsure what the goal of these mods are, would you mind explaining better?  Are these mods done to "improve" shifting?


The reason I ask is that my trans already shifted hard enough for my liking, especially 1-2 and 2-3. OD kind of slid it so I wouldn't mind stiffening that shift a little. I'm at least going to go for the hardened rings and drill out the oil passages.


VJ had to be holding back his laughter   I just hope that he thought I was on Meth so I can save face a little.


In that picture I had already pressed that little pin into the new stator support, mine didn't come that way either.


The other site has a detailed description of the what Larrym was referring to as far as checking for pump squareness. Maybe I'll check mine but I'm sure not going to machine anything.

My impression is that Janis believes in my situation that the mods are unnecessary at my current or goal power level (High twelves), he had me change the shaft, worn parts and put the thing back together.