Gonna try a diy overhaul, or two

[TexasT]

I have been ramping up to do one of these for years. I bought my car new and have had trans probs pretty much the whole time. After the dealer cancelled my warranty and I got to pay for my own a local shop talked me into a 700r4. He build several 2004r units but was better at getting the 700r4 to live. It worked good. Unfortunately, I blew a head gasket about ten years ago and the car sat. Fast forward, i got the hg replaced but the fp was whacked so a new fp regulator got her running good. I replaced the window sweeps so I could drive it. Unfortunately, the power master quit and I did a hydroboost conversion. Wow, It never had brakes or stopping power like it does now.


This brings us to a few weeks ago. Trans started rattling. Could be torque converter or who knows. I have wanted to build a 2004r to go back in. It has a 27 spline higher stall converter so it will be removed and taken to be cut and cleaned. I bought several 2004r units used and think I can put one together. The one we chose to try first is a piece for a Cadillac with an AA code.




AA code on tail shaft and valve body





Might be the reason this one was at the yard. The accumulator spring came out in three pieces.
Plate was a little marred but I think it can be reused.



We will be replacing the stator shaft with a hardened piece.



Pulled the pan and ready to get the tc lockup solenoid off so we can pull the pump.

]

Got the vb, accumulator pistons, and the tc lockup solenod off but it got dark so I pulled her up into the garage.



More when we get more done.

[Steve Wood]

so what are you going to do for a valve body that will provide the shifts and the clutch life of the TR valvebody?

[David Husek]

What year is this trans? I have an idea via the VB code, but the tag cannot be read because of dirt, can you post a new pic of the tag? Or the numbers from the tag?
 
Other than the AA coded trans, what others codes do you have?
 
If you need tech or any parts for the rebuild, give me a call anytime.....

[TexasT]

so what are you going to do for a valve body that will provide the shifts and the clutch life of the TR valvebody?

Well, I haven't really come up with a for sure direction. I do have a brf trans with what I think is the correct vb/governor combo. This one was one I picked up in Houston a few years back when we lived there. It came out of a Cadillac.

What year is this trans? I have an idea via the VB code, but the tag cannot be read because of dirt, can you post a new pic of the tag? Or the numbers from the tag? Other than the AA coded trans, what others codes do you have?  If you need tech or any parts for the rebuild, give me a call anytime.....

I will definitely take you up on that offer. I am no trans guy by any stretch but I have done a transfer case(np246) and engines(Buick v6, bbc, bbb asssembly). I have a desire to learn. I will get better pix of  the tag. We actually have the trans pretty much disassembled. I found a local trans shop that said he would run it through his hot tank for $25, so I will get that done to get the case clean.

The clutches and steels that I can see look pretty new but I haven't gotten the clutches that need to be compressed  appart yet. The ones that are in the drum are very loose and took some finegaling to get the forward drum in there when not in the case. It does appear to have the torrington bearings from the factory. Also appears to have all the springs in the drum clutches.

I'll post some more pix when I get a chance.

[TexasT]

What year is this trans? I have an idea via the VB code, but the tag cannot be read because of dirt, can you post a new pic of the tag? Or the numbers from the tag?
 
Other than the AA coded trans, what others codes do you have?
 
If you need tech or any parts for the rebuild, give me a call anytime.....

I have another AA one and a unit with brf on the tail but I haven't pulled the pan to check out the vb. I figured I could shave some weight on the aa governor to get the shift points up.


Here are some more pix.



better tag pic



Low/Reverse tool



Pulled the pump



servo removal. We have a billet unit to put in.



pulled the band out. looks pretty new.




drum and forward drum

[TexasT]

The transmission identification is on a plate on the right side of the case towards the tailshaft. This ID tag is usually held on by one rivet. The plate will have a two- or three-letter transmission code in large letters, and then a 13- or 14-digit identification number along the bottom:

1st digit: month of production (A through M, skipping the letter "I")
2nd-3rd: production day of the month
4th: shift transmission was produced (1st-3rd shift)
5th: assembly plant (T: Three Rivers, MI; J: Windsor, Canada; W: Warren, MI)
6th-7th: decade and year
8th-9th: or 8th-10th: transmission ID code
10th-13th: or 11th-14th: transmission serial number

This came from a member named ape over on this site  http://www.impalas.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-3818.html




This would indicated this particular unit came from an 84 so probably no hardened stuff or bearings.

I have talked to several and everyone of them stated a brf vb/gov was needed. Unfortunately my meager budget isnt really up for that. So, I will be attempting to make the vb I have work.

I have determined that a .500 boost valve will do for my application as the .555 is 2-3 times more and I have read of problems with the .570 .
The low/rev valve doesnt say what it is other than large ratio. Still studying on it.

I am saving up for a Raybestos red Clutch kit from my local place. His prices are two to three times what seems to be available on the internet on a lot of stuff. I like to keep it local and I also like to support our vendors in the community my budget just cant take that kind of a hit.

I will be replacing the stator support and sun shell with a hardened pieces. I am studying up on the bearings and their places. Apparently there is a bushing under the sprag that it is best replaced with a bearing.

I have also read up on springs and am still reading. Lots of info out there and not all goes in the same direction.

I have found that a white spring is good for the 1-2 accumulator and a red one for the 3-4 accumulator so I think that is the baseline I will start with.

Going to stay with the 7 vane pump but will put in new slide springs and hardened rings.

Also reading up on the line bias valve. springs n such.

So concludes my progress. I will post more as I do more.

[TexasT]

I received some of the stuff including the hard rings, .500 boost valve and large rev boost valve and stiffer springs for that circuit and the pump slide. I did did talk to Mr. Husek though it was just after the super storm sandy so he was kinda busy. I also spoke with a fellow from Michigan that was confident in his methods and answered a bunch of questions. I java continued to scour the interwebz for info. I found an old yet very informative article on shift characteristic s and how to manipulate them

Http://www.atraonline.com/gears/1998/1998-05/gmay98p7.htm

My next quest is to determine a servo/piston combo.
I have found that back when people used a th200 setup
Cover -8628134
Piston -8628112

I also read about one referred to as the case stretcher but the person selling them has disappeared.

I did come across a 692 cover as I hit a few older shops I pass in my travels. I think this setup is similar to the servo/piston used in the mcss and 84-85 tr trans. I may go back by there and see of the guy will part with it.

I do have a used billet setup I bought years ago but I'm not sure of its origin. I will probably start off with it.

Waiting on my tax return so I can order clutches, hard Sun shell an stator support and the torringron bearings.

Will update as I make more progress.

[TexasT]

Warning: this topic has not been posted in for at least 120 days.Unless you're sure you want to reply, please consider starting a new topic.


is this some kind of way of telling me i'm slow?

Oh well, i'm posting anyway to keep it together.

I was able to procure a sonnax billet servo setup, It looks real nice and  from my reading it is best for not having the 3-2 downshift clunk. I bought a set of bearings. They even say made in USA on the packaging.
I bought some clutches, regular browns for the low/rew, over run and over drive and some red ones for the direct.

I watched several vids on youtube on how to get the seals into the clutch stuff. I rigged up some seal poking "tools" out of a plastic liter bottle. And I used the .008 feeler gauge as suggested in the ck book.

[size=78%]








A tub of assembly lube





I'll need to procure some washers as these have some wear.


This washer was the one I bought the bearings kit to replace. I thought it only cheap insurance.












[/size][/color]

[TexasT]

Assembling the lower section in my custom lower assembly stand.







My back woods solution for compressing the direct piston to get the snap ring back on.





As seen in the above post I have some worn washers and such so some new thrust washers and some thicker selectives and maybe a shim or three might be needed. I had a LOT of clearance in the lower section when assembled on the bench.






I got a rubber tip for my blow gun and there is a hole in the low/rev setup. Putting air into the hole gets a piston to pop up, I thought it quite successful.




Checked the clearance on the pinions on the planetaries. so far all with in spec and no side to side when wiggling the pinions on their shaft.

[TexasT]

http://s444.photobucket.com/user/texastandgransport/slideshow/Transmission/200-4r%20build%20063013


Link to the rest of the pix from today.

[SuperSix]

Are you following a guide or something? I have a few spare BRF units, I may give it a shot.

Great thread, BTW.

[TexasT]

I have this


http://www.bulkpart.com/2/product/200-4Rmanuals/54400B.html


and this


http://www.ckperformance.com/resources/GM2004RTECHNICALMANUAL.html


and a gm book called Principles of Operation that shows how all the things interact with each other. I highly recommend a copy if you want to know what the fluid does and where it goes to do different things inside the trans.






I have been told I cant do it, I shouldn't do it, and I would be better off to have someone build it. Well if I had the budget, I'd have a lot of things done for me. Unfortunately, I'm a working guy with a mini budget, lack of time as I do spend a lot of time working, attending youth sports and doing family things. This gets me here.


I highly recommend a call to Mr Husek above. He was very friendly and answered a lot of questions and gave me some direction. He can get you the parts you need. Others have answered questions I emailed or pm'd them,and still more others did not and I'll leave it at that. I know these are guys who make a living at it so they have to make money, I get it. Not bashing, just stating it as it happened to me.


In no way is the way I'm doing it the right way, or the only way. Heck back to the budget thing, If I had the money I'd be buying the billet drum and dual feeding. I don't so I'm not this time. Heck If I had the money Id be having someone else do the whole thing and I'd just drive the thing, but where is the fun in that?


Oh well, I'm off to see the local 4th of July Parade. So much to do, so little time.

[daveismissing]

This is really interesting, thanks for being so detailed!

And I appreciate the fact David Husek  stopped by with some help,
the kind of thing I'll remember when I need transmission work,

[TexasT]

We have too much clearance on the lower unit. I will order some new thrust washers and see if we can take the slack up. I have read that these were built quite loose from the factory. This is over .040 so I'm sure it can be tightened up.





These are the "scarf" cut rings. We will be installing solid Teflon pieces. from my reading the solid seals better and with the big cut in the "scarf" cut I can see why. The kit came wth the cut pieces so I ordered a bag of the solid as I read that they are hard to install. I figured I'd hurt some but it wasn't near as difficult as described. The ones I put on the input shaft I soaked in some very hot water as I read that this helps them stretch. The set I put on the forward drum I just put them on with no prep. I didnt really see the benefit of the hot water. If you do it and have trouble maybe the hot water would help. Your call.




Bag of new solid rings.





dish of hot water I warmed up in microwave and brought to garage. Wife not too keen on me doing this ring install in her kitchen. I don't let her cook in my garage so I moved my activity back out there.




new rings on shaft.




sizing tool made from some more of the plastic liter drink bottle and some hose clamps. first work the rings into the grooves with your fingers. Then with the plastic get the rings situated and clamp them down with the hose clamps. I like that the plastic is clear as it allowed me to see we didn't pinch the rings and that they are situated into there respective grooves. Let them sit. I went back and checked on them and repostitioned the clamps to get the rings uniform. After this I was able to get the shaft into the stator support where the rings(two of them) with live.




This part is not for the faint of heart. To replace the bearing down in the planetary one must remove the planet gears and the associated pieces. The snap ring comes off then the real "fun" begins as there are little rollers like a universal joint that the planet gears ride on around the pinion shafts. when you pull the pinion shaft and slide the planet gear out keep track of the shims as therse clearance the gears to the housing and are important to put back where they came from. also those rollers come out so have a clean place to catch them.






I made a couple of scratch marks with a screwdriver on the housing next to the pinion hole to keep track of where the setups came from so I could put them back the same as they came apart.




you can see the rollers in the gear around the shaft. I didn't take pix as my hands were covered in transgel getting these back into the housing. Don't forget the new bearing as that is why we took it apart to begin with.




the old ones didnt look bad but I bought new so we will put those in.




over run clutches. We are using borg warner regular brown. These arent 'shifting' clutches so we don't need special frictions here.





Soaking the overrun clutches





two of the snap ring pliers I used.





The over run housing with sun gear on. I put new seals in it but I guess I didn't take any pix.





Takes some finagling to get this back together as a lot of gear teeth must mesh up.

[TexasT]

I found an article that outlines what affects the shift timing of the 2004r. I think it would also apply to the th200c but not sure. It is long and I had to read it over several times to keep the statements straight in my head. Apparently the governor isn't the only thing that affects where the 2004r shifts.





It's no secret that my favorite overdrive transmission for street racing is the 200-4R. The purpose of this article is not to say that we at ATRA condone this type of illegal activity, but we're pretty sure people are going to continue. And I've always felt that if you're going to do something, right or wrong, you may as well do it right. So in this article, we're going to look at ways to eliminate most of the driveability quirks, and at the same time, keep the performance feel.

With so many different combinations of engine parts, such as cams and intake manifolds to name just a couple, it's very unlikely that one type of modification will work in every application. Whether you buy a box of colored springs to get in the ballpark or start with a stock valve body, one thing is very clear: With a high performance engine, you will need to fine-tune the valve body to get maximum performance from the vehicle.

When a high performance engine is done right, you can pick up a lot of performance by keeping the engine within its RPM performance range. For example: if a big block 454 stops developing power above 6500 RPM, you can't have the transmission holding the full throttle 1­2 upshift to 6700 RPM. There's far more vehicle performance to be gained with shift timing, rather than shift feel. So in this article we'll deal with shift timing modifications, and leave the hard shifts for another time.

The hardest part about fine tuning the 200-4R, especially for street use is there are so many valves to work with. Each of these valves offer a slightly different way to modify shift timing. For example, if you want to delay upshifts, you could work with the governor, TV adjustment, MTV up, or the individual shift valve springs. The valve you choose depends on exactly how you want to delay your upshift.

Understanding the function of these valves will help you make this decision. I know that some of you don't care about how each valve functions, but quite frankly, if you want to build a transmission for a fast car, you need to step up to the plate. Could you just imagine if the John Force crew chief, Austin Coil, said, "I don't know how fuel injection works ... I just tune it." I will however, try to keep it short, to the point, and leave out as much math homework as I can. Keep in mind that while most of these principles also apply to many different transmissions, some may not. Throughout this article, I am writing about the 2004R only.

Basics: Governor pressure is acting on one side of the shift valves, trying to force the valves toward the upshifted position, while all other pressures, such as shift valve spring tension, MTV pressure, and detent pressure are trying to force the shift valve toward the downshifted position.

Governor: Modifying governor pressure changes all upshift and downshift timings. Raising governor pressure makes all upshifts and downshifts occur at lower vehicle speeds. Lowering governor pressure makes all upshifts and downshifts occur at higher vehicle speeds. You can alter the governor pressure by changing the size of the small governor weight or the spring tension on the small governor weight (figure 1).

http://www.atraonline.com/gears/1999/1999-07/gjul99p16a.jpg
Figure 1

Modifying the spring tension tends to have a greater effect on governor pressure at lower vehicle speeds rather than higher speeds. A lighter spring lowers governor pressure and a heavier spring increases governor pressure.

Modifying the governor weights tends to change governor pressure at all vehicle speeds above 5­10 MPH. A lighter weight lowers governor pressure and a heavier weight increases pressure at any given vehicle speed.

If you want to make any other shift timing modifications you'll have to make them in the valve body. Figure two shows all of the valves we'll discuss here.

Throttle Valve: There is only one adjustment for the TV cable. You should set it to maximum at full throttle and then leave it alone. Make all other shift timing and shift feel adjustments with valve body or governor modifications.

If this vehicle did not originally have a 2004R in it, the TV cable may not be properly calibrated or set up for this vehicle. If this is the case on the car you're working on, there is an excellent "Ask The Experts" article in GEARS, May 1997 that shows how to check and correct TV cable installation and calibration problems.

Shift Valve Springs: Shift valve springs tend to control upshift and downshift timing at light throttle opening, while having a slight effect on the medium-to-full throttle shifts. A heavier spring will raise the upshift and downshift speeds while a lighter spring will lower the upshift and downshift speeds. The main reason to modify this spring is to modify one particular shift. For example, if you want to lower the 2­3 upshift but leave the 1­2 and the 3­4 alone, replace the 2­3 shift valve spring with a lighter one.

MTV Up: This valve determines two things: First, the valve blocks TV pressure from getting to any of the shift valves until TV pressure is high enough to move the MTV Up valve. Once this happens, the MTV Up valve regulates TV pressure. The MTV Up valve controls the sensitivity of the light-to-medium upshifts. A heavier MTV Up spring makes the light-to-medium upshifts earlier. A lighter MTV Up spring makes the light-to-medium upshifts later. Once the shift valve upshifts, the shift valve blocks MTV Up pressure, so it no longer controls the shift valve.

MTV Down: This valve also determines two things: First the valve blocks TV pressure from getting to any of the shift valves--except the 1-2 shift valve--until TV pressure is high enough to move the MTV Down valve. Once this happens the MTV Down valve regulates TV pressure. The MTV Down valve controls the sensitivity of the light-to-medium 3­2 and 4­2 downshifts, and also lockup when the valve body has a converter clutch shift valve. A heavier MTV Down spring makes the unit less likely to get light-to-medium throttle downshifts at any given speed. The unit is more likely to remain in the higher gears. A lighter MTV Down spring makes the unit more likely to get light-to-medium downshifts at any given speed. The unit is more likely to downshift, rather than stay in the higher gears. Once the shift valve downshifts, the shift valve blocks MTV Down pressure, so it no longer controls the shift valve. Figure three shows a chart showing how both MTV up and MTV down behave based on TV pressure rise.

TV limit: This valve controls the maximum pressure the TV valve can produce. Since TV pressure feeds the MTV Up and MTV Down valves, changing the maximum TV pressure will affect the MTV valve pressures slightly. However, detent (kickdown) pressure is controlled directly by the TV limit valve, and changing the TV limit spring can change detent pressure considerably. High detent pressure will prevent full throttle 1­2, 2­3, 3­2 and 2­1 shifts until vehicle speeds are high. Low detent pressure will allow the full throttle 1­2, 2­3, 3­2 and 2­1 shifts at low vehicle speeds. A heavy spring in this location will increase detent pressure, while a lighter spring will lower detent pressure.

In street racing, the only thing that matters is getting there first; there's no silver medal for 2nd place. Slam shifts may impress your friends, but they won't help you reach the finish line faster. The real trick to getting there first is matching your shift timing to your engine's power curve.


Figure 2


Figure 3




I found a few things confusing such as the part where the vehicle attains 510 mph. I have never been able to get mine going that fast so even faster is out of the question for me.


I did get the valve body disassembled and cleaned up. The plate has some wear at the check ball holes but I will dress those with a file or stone. Get her cleaned up and reassembled.