XFI vs ECM

[daveismissing]

Norbs - Give us the pros and cons, when and why to switch, total cost, driveability.

[Grumpy]

OMG !! We are screwed 

[motorhead]

It is going to be fun trying to put all these worms back into the can you just opened...

[Top Speed]

lol

[daveismissing]

Informative thread so far.

[ULYCYC]

[TURBOPOWERED68]

these are probably the same type of responses that car manufacturers got when going to EFI.
Carburetors work WTF do we need fuel injection for??
Big cubic inches make power WTF do we need turbos for?

And here we are playing with both these at the time stupid ideas. 

[Grumpy]

these are probably the same type of responses that car manufacturers got when going to EFI.

 well think about this.. How many guys with a XFI systems can tune there own car ??  I see a lot of guys having "tuners" do there set ups.  I also think that once you are goin FAST you could prob have a better tune with an XFI.. Chips like TT have many adjustments so most can "tune" their own cars.. Just try different settings. There are only so many to try. Me I am lazy, old  an won't count on other people to tune my car.

[norbs]

Norbs - Give us the pros and cons, when and why to switch, total cost, driveability.

The stock ecu does not provide immunity to interference from MSD boxes.
The timing on the stock ecu is is fixed by gear changes and once you go WOT it is not regulated by boost.  I e you can't  put in 25 degrees at 5 psi boost, 23 at 1o psi boost, etc.  Even with the trans pro you can do it against rpm but not boost.
The processor speed is 8mhz compared to 24 mhz. The O2 sensor gain on the WB chips is fixed, xfi its variable, and the correction limits are fixed on the wb chip , xfi its not.
XFI has self learning with variable gain,  individual timing and fuel control.
boost, control, timed boost control, 2 step,  3 step, nitrous control, 4 inputs, 4 aux outputs, 8 analog inputs, datalogging at 20 fps for 24 items. 5 bar map input.
Wideband o2 inhibit delay to reduce spikes  on wb correction on gear changes.
User defined coldstart, after start enrichment, cranking fuel, any injector size , high impedance and low impedance.


The cost is about $2000 by the time your done is the con, and the time you need to tune all this in..

Many more features Im just starting out...

[daveismissing]

Thanks
Can it self learn to the point of making a street friendly good gas mileage daily driver? 

[1KWIKSIX]

Norbs - Give us the pros and cons, when and why to switch, total cost, driveability.

Hey Dave,
 
Although I'm not an expert with XFI, nor do I even have a full understanding on how it operates, I can comment on the cost factor vs ECM set up.
 
While attending at the Turbobuick Nats' / Richard Clarks......I did speak with Cal Hartline about the cost factor. Cal stated that compared to the ECM set up, with all the costs of all the components req'd......that the XFI is very reasonably priced.
 
Think about it for a moment.....if we add up the cost of a 1) ScanMaster 2) WideBand 3) PowerLogger 4) Electronic FP Gauge & Transducer 5) MAF Sensor & whatever else is req'd......my best guess is that it would total around $1,500. +/- ?
 
This is only a couple of hundred less than the price of an XFI system.
 
I did hear  him say that for the faint of heart, or people that do not have a laptop......  he has it set up as self learning right outa the box. Just gotta drive around with it for a while and it will adjust automatically.
 
 

[ULYCYC]

To me it all boils down to the car and driver. A very basic setup from 20 years ago can get into the 11's without troubles with general knowledge on boost, fuel, timing, suspension and how to turn the ignition key. But today most want gadgets to make it easy and not use your brain. I have to tune and set up a bone stock  GN on Tues so as I said above many still can't do it. I agree a ecm with all the add-ons vs xfi come close in cost but they both have the same problem that most can't tune. I don't know if it's just being lazy or afraid.  In the end the faster you go the more you need finer tuning. My experience is this point is low 10's and planning to visit the 9's. If you want  high 11's any chip and bluetops will get the job done.

[Steve Wood]

seems to me that if one wants to get his money's worth out of an aftermarket system, then one must not only be able to learn how to use it, he must have access to a dyno.  Otherwise, the cost of paying for dyno time and a tuner is going to add a lot to the cost and that is never mentioned by these guys selling these things.

And, if one gets it to run on the street as well as the factory ecm, I suspect it will not pass a comprehensive emissions test if that has to be performed annually.

I still laugh when I remember the renowned tuner that was blasting the use of an ME chip on a particular TSM car when he could easily get two more tenths with an XFI.  It took many months before he got the car to go faster than it was with the chip.   There have been several guys run in the mid 8's with a chip.   Now, I agree with Ed, if I were building a race car that running in the Nines, or quicker, I would go aftermarket if for no other reason than more flexibility with timing and individual cylinder tuning.  But, then with a race car, I would be looking for hundreths, not tenths, , and absolute repeatibility run to run. 

On the track, a race car runs a very narrow rpm band and launches at very high rpm.  This makes the basic tuning relatively simple and I suspect most  of the gains will come in low gear trying to get it to launch optimally and consistently.

On the street, one is concerned with a much broader rpm band and many degrees of throttle rather than foot on the floor.  Gas mileage, emissions, cold weather performance, hot weather performance, variation in gasoline quality, etc. all have to be accounted for.  It is hard to beat a modern chip/stock ecm when it comes to street performance.  Self learning certainly helps, but, sometimes it seems to work better than others.  There is enuf variation between cars and combos to confound the issue.

And, echoing Ed and Dan, how many people will put in the time and effort to learn the hows and whys of tuning?  Think how many people buy a programmable chip and cannot even read the instructions to program the simplest of functions even when there may only be six things that can be adjusted.  Most people that are buying these things today are not car guys.  They don't understand timing, fueling, basic electrical systems, etc.  How many posts do we see that go something like, "My car won't start; what should I buy?"  Vendors love them because they can sell them magical parts to solve their problems.

On the other hand, I keep looking at modern aftermarket systems to install on my Challenger...b ut, when I look at the prices, the calculator in my head keeps saying, "Buy a modern hemi and drop it in there...."

No matter what your flavor, nothing beats fuel injection on the street

[Turbodave]

seems to me that if one wants to get his money's worth out of an aftermarket system, then one must not only be able to learn how to use it, he must have access to a dyno.  Otherwise, the cost of paying for dyno time and a tuner is going to add a lot to the cost and that is never mentioned by these guys selling these things.

And, if one gets it to run on the street as well as the factory ecm, I suspect it will not pass a comprehensive emissions test if that has to be performed annually.

I still laugh when I remember the renowned tuner that was blasting the use of an ME chip on a particular TSM car when he could easily get two more tenths with an XFI.  It took many months before he got the car to go faster than it was with the chip.   There have been several guys run in the mid 8's with a chip.   Now, I agree with Ed, if I were building a race car that running in the Nines, or quicker, I would go aftermarket if for no other reason than more flexibility with timing and individual cylinder tuning.  But, then with a race car, I would be looking for hundreths, not tenths, , and absolute repeatibility run to run. 

On the track, a race car runs a very narrow rpm band and launches at very high rpm.  This makes the basic tuning relatively simple and I suspect most  of the gains will come in low gear trying to get it to launch optimally and consistently.

On the street, one is concerned with a much broader rpm band and many degrees of throttle rather than foot on the floor.  Gas mileage, emissions, cold weather performance, hot weather performance, variation in gasoline quality, etc. all have to be accounted for.  It is hard to beat a modern chip/stock ecm when it comes to street performance.  Self learning certainly helps, but, sometimes it seems to work better than others.  There is enuf variation between cars and combos to confound the issue.

And, echoing Ed and Dan, how many people will put in the time and effort to learn the hows and whys of tuning?  Think how many people buy a programmable chip and cannot even read the instructions to program the simplest of functions even when there may only be six things that can be adjusted.  Most people that are buying these things today are not car guys.  They don't understand timing, fueling, basic electrical systems, etc.  How many posts do we see that go something like, "My car won't start; what should I buy?"  Vendors love them because they can sell them magical parts to solve their problems.

On the other hand, I keep looking at modern aftermarket systems to install on my Challenger...b ut, when I look at the prices, the calculator in my head keeps saying, "Buy a modern hemi and drop it in there...."

No matter what your flavor, nothing beats fuel injection on the street

Oh Boy!!! Give this man a cigar!!!!  Man-oh-man did you  hit the nail square on every point!!!!!!

[daveismissing]

Norbs - Give us the pros and cons, when and why to switch, total cost, driveability.

.....
 
I did hear  him say that for the faint of heart, or people that do not have a laptop......  he has it set up as self learning right outa the box. Just gotta drive around with it for a while and it will adjust automatically.

I was there too, and he CRINGED when he said that- so reading between the lines says it ain't so great.