Newbie w. New GN

[earlbrown]

Are you saying that is crank sensor bracket is still pinned to the timing cover with a steel pin? If so, that pin is supposed to stay in the block!

You can buy just the bracket. Only problem is that the replacement bracket only works with a replacement crank sensor. Not really the end of the world though. If you've already got an aftermarket sensor I think I paid $12 for my last bracket.

I think you will automatically get the upgraded roller button now. If you want to make sure, order one for a '95 buick park avenue with a 3800 (same engine for the wider rod bearings). I wanna say the part number is MR-1874

I do see one big problem though...    You shouldn't have painted the cam bearing. If it's still kinda wet hit it with brake parts cleaner like RIGHT NOW!!!   If it's fully cured I can't think of anything I would trust to remove that paint without messing up the bearing surface (not to mention whatever chemical it is getting into the oil passages).   You might have to knock that one out and get a replacement. Has the freeze plug been installed in the cam tunnel yet?

 Also it looks lie your brass oil block is still in the engine. I would make sure that there isn't a paint flake in there waiting to block off oil to the turbo!


And if you're going to remove the block and the front cam bearing take a dremel tool with a round carbide cutter and radius the oil passage where it turns going to the cam bearing. MAKE SURE to get all the chips out if you take that step!


Oh yeah....  set your intake in place of the oil pan. It looks like your paint might not go down far enough to cover all the exposed metal.

[bryes]

Thanks for the link 1987 GN.


As always thanks a lot for your in detailed  responses Earl,

by paragraph:

When I pulled the timing cover off the pin came with it. I was finally able to separate the crank bracket from the timing cover, but now the pin is indeed still stuck in the bracket!

I still have the OEM crank sensor but it looks like now I will likely be forced to go aftermarket. Will any aftermarket bracket work or will I have

Ok, that's the one I'll get.

Well one thing for sure, the paint has cured now. In retrospect, I should have just put the cam in before spraying.  I don't think all is lost though, because while all evidence clearly points to the contrary, believe it or not I didn't intentionally paint the Cam bearing! I tried to just coat the engine just past where the timing cover installed, so maybe it is not very thick... maybe just overspray. Either way, I can probably remove the paint with scotchbright if I have to. Do you think it would really be a problem other than than installing the cam? I'd think it would just wear off and be flushed by the oil  into the crankcase. What would be the worst case scenario, a flake? Has anyone had problems painting a bearing?

I'll check out those blocks to see if what I can see. I definitely don't want flakes in my oil passages. If I have to I'll pull them off.


Ok, hopefully that bearing isn't coming out.

I'll be sure to set the intake on to see, if I missed places I can touch them up.

[earlbrown]

Screwing with that bearings is a little scary. If the paint rolls up on itself during use it might cause weird things. If you scotchbrite it, you'd be introducing many many small pieces of really abrasive grit to a new engine. Not to mention any removal of bearing material will increase your cam-to-bearing clearance...    and of all the bearings to open up that's the last one you want to clearance....

The way the Buick oil system works is the pump creates a head pressure...   it goes in the block and hits the front cam bearing first...     what ever doesn't leak out of that bearing clearance feeds the entire engine!   Any oil hemorrhaged there is taken completely out of the loop.

I hate to sound like I'm trying to scare you..   There's a chance the cam would turn and everything would be just groovy...         on the other hoof, is it worth $20 to avoid that potential pitfall?

I bet I can make that 20 clams look more appeasing...    Did the machine shop install that bearing with the feed hold at 7:30 (when viewed from the front) like they were supposed to, or did they clock the bearing to feed the oil at 4:00 like it should actually be done?

If you have a grooved block or a grooved bearing OD, you can move the feed hole to 4:00. That will give the front journal more support/better oiling and it will limit the amount of oil it can bleed off if the clearances open up.

[bryes]

Thanks again for your response earl.

I think that I was able to address the bearing issue. Although it looks like it was thoroughly coated with paint in the picture, it was just overspray. I can see bearing material shining through the overspray all the way around the circumference of the bearing. I am just not worried about it because it can't really flake off or curl up.

To my knowledge, the last machine shop that this engine has seen was in '86 or '87 in the GM plant! I think I noticed today that  the bearing is installed clocked at 7:30 (I couldn't tell if it was AM or PM)

Well this weekend I was able to "earl Brown" my front cover. Also, I sandblasted some more bolts in addition to the valve covers (a few places I had missed before) and the  water pump. I am preparing to use the old water pump should Santa Clause not bring me one this year. Unfortunately, I've been on the naughty list for quite a few years now... so I am not expecting much

I am still waiting on the cam thrust bearing, I ordered one last week but the one that came in was the old vinyl style. Not sure how that happened because I tried to order one for the '95 PA. I guess that is what I get for ordering from ebay.

It looks like I will also have to buy another tensioner.

Well I should have plenty of time to work on this thing in the next few weeks, so as long as I am not waiting on parts, I think I have a chance of getting it in the car.

[earlbrown]

I "earlbrown"d a timing cover this weekend too

You can get the tentioner and thrust button from any of the fast food parts houses. Right now advanceautopar ts.com is giving a 20% discount on any online orders too. Might put it on par with Ebay pricing and you can have it that day if it's in stock.

[bryes]

Hello again,

I am having difficulty finding the correct front seal for the timing cover. After removing the old rope seal ring I measure the ID on my cover as about 2 5/8" . The oil seals that I  tried  from autozone and Oreily's both seem to measure 2 3/4". I know that those things are always a tight fit but this seems way off.  I think I'd wind up breaking the cover before it would press in there.

Both stores referenced the same pt#,  710162 which was 2-3/4" OD. Does anyone know if this is correct?

Thanks

Bryes

[Steve Wood]

that seems to be the right Timken part number for our front covers, and many more.  It has been too long since I did one and I don't remember the size.  I did not have any problem driving it home, tho.

[earlbrown]

Sounds about right. I just measured a new lip seal for a GM cover at it's OD is 2.655 (the metal lip is a little over 2-3/4 if that's what they were talking about)

The seal that comes with the Fel-Pro TCS45930 is a National brand with S-I2623 and K100674R on it.

You did remove that metal piece when you took out the rope seal didn't you?

[bryes]

Thanks for getting back with me so quickly.
Let's see if this picture helps. I did drive out the rope seal ring, so that was never the issue. Below is a picture of the front cover, seal   and my measurements. I returned the seal earlier, so I had to cartoon it in. I was afraid to drive it into place because of how much interference (1/8") and while I haven't ever installed this exact seal before, I don't remember any of the others having so much interference.

Earl, it seems like you are measuring similar dimensions? 

If so I guess I'll have to try again.

Thanks

Bryes

[Steve Wood]

Here is the Felpro number  http://www.weberpowerproducts.com/fel-pro-gm-front-cover-oil-seal-p/fel-15200.htm

[earlbrown]

Or for less money, you can get the whole kit

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fel-Pro-TCS45930-Engine-Timing-Cover-Gasket-Set-/200842038144?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2ec31e4b80&vxp=mtr


Your cartoon is off too.  The outermost lip is a little over the 2-3/4 mark. It the rubber part with the fine ridges on them was 1/8 big, it was the wrong seal. You're not going to be able to install it with that much interference fit.

[bryes]

LOL! If there is one thing that "who framed roger rabbit" has taught us, it's that cartoons are always "a little off"!

That Timken seal did not have ridges on the OD, it was smooth and there was no bent ridge to keep it from being installed too deep. It looked to me like the whole OD measured around 2-3/4" no matter how deep you put the calipers on it...  any cross-section cut perpendicular to the centerline of the bearing would have the same OD as the cartoon.

I wish that I could order that $9 set, but I have this week off and I don't want to wait that long! I'm going to go to NAPA when they open to see if they have the fel-pro part.

Thanks again,
Bryes

[earlbrown]

If there was no metal lip, the seal they sold you was nowhere near close to being the right one.

All the fast food parts houses sell the full kit.

[bryes]

Well I wasted my entire day but I finally think I got the right seal. In the morning I was trying to just buy the seal instead of the kit, and found that nobody, not even the dealer has them in stock. Then I read earl's post and decided to  try buying  the full kit. Sure enough Oreily's down the street had it. I got it home to find that the kit contained a seal with 2.25" OD, too small (See first picture below)! Not sure what this seal is for and I can't read any #s on it, but it won't install in the cover or fit over the balancer.



I did notice that the kit from Oreily's had been taped so I called advance and made the guy rip into the kit and measure the seal, he said it was 2 5/8" so I bought it. Sure enough, finally it is the right one. It's a national K100674-R and is made in mexico. I wish the timken had worked (made in usa, company HQ in Canton Ohio), but at this point I would have bought one from Joseph Stalin... and left a tip!

This one fits easily and has the lip that earl mentioned that the others did not. Pictured again below.

Lessons learned:
Pt # 710162, od = 2-3/4" does not work
Always be leery of opened packaging
Don't buy the front timing seal individually, buy the  TC 45930 kit
National S-I2623   K100674-R is 2 5/8" at the ridges and will fit.

[Steve Wood]

One more obstacle conquered!