IHADAV8.com - Turbo Buick Tech, and Nonsense
Tech Area => General Buick Tech => Topic started by: Shimy87 on September 23 2014, 02:00:02 PM
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Been tuning car. It has had a chug/surge in third gear starting about 75ish. Thought maybe fuel pump was getting weak as I was also getting a bit of knock in third also ( .7 to 1.2) it varied but my O2's were 790ish so I was checking fuel pressure and at 23 lbs of boost I was putting 70 lbs of fuel pressure to her so that wasnt it. Happened to look in mirror during a run and had a cloud of smoke behind me. Made another pass and 1st and 2nd no smoke, in 3rd it does the chug/surge/hesitation thing and the smoke starts coming on. Checked the up pipe and its bone dry so its not pushing oil out the turbo. I have breathers on both valve covers. I did notice that it is also spitting out a little oil thru the dip stick tube.
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what did you say the compression is?
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Solved the smoke show. The vacuum line that went into the solinoid that then goes to the egr blew out of the end. I stick a pin thru the rubber coupler that the hose pushes into and made a few passes....no smoke. As soon as it cools down ill be doing a comp test, its back to only pushing 20 lbs of boost. What should I have for compression? If compression checks out im going to pull the headers and check for cracks or signs of leaks at the block. Did a smoke test before and didnt see any but something is causing my lack of boost????
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Not sure what that has to do with smoke, but...TT chip does not use the egr so you can remove that solenoid and the vacuum lines associated with it.
Compression should be about 145-150 psi. Be sure to hold the throttle wide open when checking. I usually unplug the cam sensor to prevent the engine from running or activating the injectors while testing.
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Test the check valves on the rest of the stuff
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Comp test dont know cylinder numbers so starting by the turbo and going clockwise 162 162 162 150 162 160. The back cylinder by the driverside firewall is the low one. Is that too far out? I know on a sled 10 lbs is the most you should vary before a rebuild but I dont know about cars??
Of course one of the plug wire ends broke off while doing this......I think the car hates me
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Close enuf, I think
1 3 5 from front on drivers side, 2 4 6 passenger
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So no rebuild yet? How far apart is to much with these? I did find a bad check valve, the one going to the charcol canister. I also elininated the vacuum to the egr control.
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May be a bad valve leaking pressure out of the cylinder. As the others are close, I don't think it's a big problem yet. I was wondering why it was blowing oil. Thought you might find 120psi. Thought that might explain the low boost, too.
Somewhere between 10% and 10 psi, I guess. 10% variation between cylinders.
I still don't understand why it smoked
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Could a bad valve, under 20lbs of boost, push oil in thru the valve. The motor has had a "tick" ever since I got the car, maybe its a valve I hear? This winter could I get the drivers side head off while motor Is in the car? Or does the motor need to come out for that?
Tommorow night im going to pull the headers and check for leaks/ cracks. Gotta solve this lack of boost.
Thanks!!
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boost would push oil out of the cylinder, not suck it in. No problems pulling the heads with the engine in the car
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Been to 4 auto parts stores to get a replacement check valve. The one that is going to the charcol canister, so where can you get one. I cant even order one thru a parts store. What if I dont have a check valve in that line??
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Help section should have them. Used on many cars. Boost blows into the cannisyer
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And back to the tank... Not sure if the solenoid on the cannister stops it, or not
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Could that bad valve be causing my lack of boost?
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Don't think so. Plug the line and find out. Need to find out if the car runs differently in third gear anyway
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A PL log of a 3rd gear pull would be nice about now.
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Probably way rich with low boost. . Still wondering how a blown egr valve line would cause smoke
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Boost won't rise...smoke.. .one low cylinder...chu gging in 3rd. Headgasket starting to go on that cylinder?
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Saw one the other day with about 110 psi on all six. . It was making 23 psi boost and running 12.0 in the quarter so I don't know
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Losing any water?
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Not losing water. SM recall showed 792 at 92 mph so not that rich. The plug in the low cylinder was snow white, actually they all were pretty white. I thought light tan was a better color but again im only used to reading plugs in my race sleds.
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snow white would be very lean....strang e...nothing adds up....looking forward to another drive...
I was thinking the smoke might be water but then you said it went away
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No exhaust leak around the base of the egr valve?
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What color was the smoke?
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Didnt see any smoke leaks anywhere when I did the smoke test. The smoke during the run was blue so it was oil, coolant would have been whiteish I think? Could boost be holding the pcv valve closed and causing it to push oil where it isnt supposed to go? It has been pushing some oil up and thru the breather on the drivers side valve cover.
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I would guess than #6 with the lower compression is allowing blow by into the pan....
pcv should be closed during boost to keep boost out of the oil pan. Be sure your pvc is moving freely so it can open close as it is supposed to. you should be able to blow very little air thru it from the top side (end that goes to the vacuum block)
None of that should have much to do with making boost, however
Now if the intake is not sealed to the heads properly, blow by rising to the top of the engine could be sucked into the combustion chamber and also make the engine run lean
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If the pcv is not sealing when you blow thru it, that could cause the oil to spit out as you describe....yo u can always just plug the hose going to the pcv and see if it stops blowing oil up
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Thats what I was going to try. REALLY hoping its not blow by on low cylinder!!
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plan for today is to eliminate the possibility of pcv valve letting boost pressurize pan. plugging line to charcoal canister (no check valve found yet) using 2 stroke oil to do another smoke test for exhaust leaks, was going to let the fuel pressure reg vacuum line suck it in. no point in taking a bunch of things apart, if it dosent leak smoke then its gotta be sealed enough to build boost.....I think?
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Sounds right to me
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Im at a loss with this dam thing. Did smoke check and I have zero exhaust leaks that I can see. PCV works as it should. I also now have zero vacuum leaks. I resett tt chip to defaults, adjusted the rjc boost controller to mid way, have wastegate actuator set to 3/16 inch pull to set over pin. Started to go thru steps to dial in, made a 3rd gear run and it will only push 17 lbs boost. Looked on recall on sm and it recorded 855 so I adjusted chip twice. Its at 112 now in setting 1. Still wont push over 17 lbs. And recall Is down to 790 but thats going to be way to lean a setting If the boost ever works correctly and hits 24. It stutters like it wants to boost and will jump boost close to 20 in flashes but wont hold it. After it cools im going to wire puck closed, reset chip to defaults and see if it will boost. I dont know what else to do.
On the smoke issue, none on any of these tests.
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Wired shut puck. Foot to the floor in third. Boost wavers between 16 and 18. Has to be exhaust leak or bad turbo.....righ t? If compressor wheel has no play then all thats left is exhaust leak??????
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I have absolutely no idea.
Most cars I see have about 145-150 psi of compression on the cylinders and they work fine. As I said, I saw one the other day that had 110 on most cylinders and it made 23 psi of boost. I don't think one at 150 will cause it not to run right.
Now, the other day, you said it ran badly in third...think you used the word chug...is it still doing that? Or is running cleanly?
Is it still blowing smoke?
the 855 O2 is about what I would expect with the chip on default settings at that boost level.
You said the plug was white? Where they all white? that ain't right. Light tan would be more normal.
If you turn the alky off and program the chip for 16 degs of timing, can you give it a kick and see if it spools faster or looks like it wants to go higher....gett ing your foot out of it as quick as you can if it acts differently so detonation does not take over. Some race gas in the tank would be nice but turning the timing way back should keep you in the range to about 20 psi.
I am thinking about white plugs, and the chugging and wondering if the alky system has gone berserk and is flooding the engine.
If the turbo spins freely, the puck is sealed properly, I would think the turbo is okay. However, did the problem exist with the old turbo?
Does the vacuum read steady up around 18-19 inches of Hg at idle when the engine is warmed up and idling?
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...
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Been to 4 auto parts stores to get a replacement check valve. The one that is going to the charcol canister, so where can you get one. I cant even order one thru a parts store. What if I dont have a check valve in that line??
Check valves that are good and not terribly expensive. .
http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=23369
Sent from my SPH-L900 using Tapatalk
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Not blowing smoke at all anymore.
In normal driving it runs perfectly, under boost in third if I have it floored the chugging/surging is the boost wanting to build above 17 lbs I think, I 'll feel a spike of boost so the car seems "surgey".
With old turbo it didn't do this.
I though about the white plugs, and at first I thought maybe the surgey feeling I was getting was the fuel pump not pushing constant pressure at boost and leaning out. Checked that and it built FP correctly and held right there. I 'm thinking that the alky is pushing what would be required at 23 lbs of boost but because the car is only building 17 lbs its feeding way to much alky and causing the white plugs.
Don't have a vacuum gauge, just boost gauge.
Checked plugs again and the have a touch of tan to them. I'm used to reading snowmobile plugs and with them you can read the mark on the electrode where they spark and close to the bend is perfect, beyond the bend is lean and these are there right before the bend. So if that remains the same with a car plug they are good.
I cant test anymore today. This is my thought, tell me what you think. Even though I did the smoke test I'm thinking exhaust leak...here's my thinking. With the engine compression I have, and the 5931 turbo with a wired shut puck it should build past 15 lbs. easy. If the alky was drownding the car and killing boost, wouldn't that much alky cause the car to stumble for a bit after I let off while it burned off the excess? It dosent, it runs like a charm when not in boost and also immediately after I let off. You guys forgot more about these cars than I know but this shouldn't be complicated, exhaust spins compressor to build boost, if the puck cant open then this turbo should be blasting past 15lbs?? Unless the exhaust is leaking somewhere pre-turbo?? Maybe it wasn't a bad enough leak before with the smaller stock turbo but now with the larger one it is effecting it? Also on the old stock turbo 23 lbs was the MOST I could ever get out of it.
What do you think, what else can I tell you? And Scoobum, I appreciate any help offered also, I know a PL would help a lot but I don't have one....yet.
Thanks guys!!
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What I found in the past is if the boost was too low with alky...then the engine would bog down. Turn the boost up to 20 and above...and it would get up and run. If you're using Julios alky kit...are the settings on his defaults?
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Yes on defaults. Even with wired shut puck it wont build boost past 15-17 lbs
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Makes me wonder if the turbo has the wrong wheel in it for the casting boring...but, I don't know. Without another turbo to try, it's hard to pin it on the turbo...sure is strange it started doing that with that new turbo.
I told you what to do with regard to turning the alky off...just a long shot. It's definitely getting too much for that level of boost as Brad said.
I won't waste my time ranting about the value of a vacuum gauge when it comes to troubleshootin g
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What number is the alky knob pointing at? Should be 6 or 7. Go inside the PAC controller and verify Julios settings. His instructions show where the adjustment knobs should be.
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At this point my main question is, shouldn't this turbo with a wired shut puck boost past 15lbs if no exhaust leaks are present?
alky knob at 6
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At this point my main question is, shouldn't this turbo with a wired shut puck boost past 15lbs if no exhaust leaks are present?
If it's drowning in alky...no.
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What would turning the knob down to say 3 do? Cut the total flow back or just slow the rate of alky injected?
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Transmission cooler leak? Is the line pressure climbing to a point that creates a leak/smoke show?
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Been reading everything I can and I have found this. I have my alky set on 6 the default.. It looks like I can adjust this and lower amount of alky being sprayed. Tommorrow I will reset tt chip to defaults, set wastegate and boost controller to recommended settings and turn alky knob down to 4 and see if boost improves. I have a glimmer of hope that I can tune this problem away. Track day on Sunday and I really had been looking forward to it, gotta get this thing squared away!
Thanks for the help guys. I was stuck on a exhaust leak but this alky setting might be the issue!!
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Julios default settings are fairly spot on. Was curious if the PAC settings were on default. Was wondering if the volume setting had been turned up. Be careful cutting back the alky. You could try turning off the alky...but keep an eye on KR with the increased timing in the alky chip.
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Can you remove the down pipe and take a pic of the exhaust compressor wheel in the exhaust housing of the turbo. I think steve said it in an earlier post but I'm thinking the exhaust housing opening for the turbine wheel is too large.
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Can you remove the down pipe and take a pic of the exhaust compressor wheel in the exhaust housing of the turbo. I think steve said it in an earlier post but I'm thinking the exhaust housing opening for the turbine wheel is too large.
If the car was making boost with the old turbo and does not make boost with the new turbo, then that would appear to be significant. I would like to think that if one or both of the wheels were wrong, the boost build up would be slow but? It takes heat to make boost, but, again, once wound up, one would think that the temp would be sufficient.
As he had had alky problems prior, and the plugs were so white, I wondered about the alky system malfunctioning . Don't think it is a question of adjustment but again?
Then we get down to things like bad coil pack that won't fire under boost or weak valve springs that are not closing under boost. The timing of the problem makes everything really questionable.
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pics of housings attached, you can see how well the puck lines up. Wheel has no play at all.
Tried turning down the alky, didnt have any effect.
New development, now car dosent want to upshift under full throttle into third, just hangs up at 5000 rpm's, probably unrelated
Old turbo would put out 23 lbs but to get there I had the actuator arm set about 3/8 inch pull to get on pin and also had to shim RJC boost controller spring and max it out.
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How much of an exhaust leak would it take to cause this problem.....st upid question I know but just in general, a large leak or could a small one do it. In the pic's it looks like it make leak a tiny amount where the 2 housings meet, you can kinda see it in the pic's
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Turbo housing looks good to me. Can't say I wish I had your problem but it's better than making too much boost.
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It would take a sizable leak
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just got back from testing. Could weak valve springs cause this problem? If I make a run from a stop it will pull 17 lbs boost in first but the rpm's slow from 4000 up to shift, at shift boost drops to 15ish and then it really struggles to build rpm's from 4000 to 5000 and wont shift. I have it to the floor but it wont build enough rpm to alow the shift??
When I got the car I was told it had 100 lb valve spring put in it but they would have 50000 miles on them now. Maybe I'm grasping at straws but at this point I don't know what to do.
I did turn off alky and give that at a test....boost was no quicker, let off at 15 lbs as SM showed 3 on KR. I doubt boost was going any higher anyway from the swing of the needle on the gauge, for sure it wasn't making it past 20.
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Can you remove the down pipe and take a pic of the exhaust compressor wheel in the exhaust housing of the turbo. I think steve said it in an earlier post but I'm thinking the exhaust housing opening for the turbine wheel is too large.
If the car was making boost with the old turbo and does not make boost with the new turbo, then that would appear to be significant. I would like to think that if one or both of the wheels were wrong, the boost build up would be slow but? It takes heat to make boost, but, again, once wound up, one would think that the temp would be sufficient.
As he had had alky problems prior, and the plugs were so white, I wondered about the alky system malfunctioning . Don't think it is a question of adjustment but again?
Then we get down to things like bad coil pack that won't fire under boost or weak valve springs that are not closing under boost. The timing of the problem makes everything really questionable.
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I figured it out... go and put the old turbo back on!
Just kidding. I wish I could tell you how to help but I can't. I recently installed a down pipe with an external waste gate that failed to open and control boost thus there was too much boost and no way to control it even at half throttle pulls. Pulled it all apart, checked spring, checked mating surfaces, checked everything. Put it back together, still wouldn't open.
My solution...
I went back to my old trusty internally gated downpipe and boost controller. Anybody want to buy a 3 inch down pipe with external waste gate and boost control?
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Gonna replace valve springs. What specifically do I need. Comp 980 is in all my searches, parts store couldnt come up with them with that info. Sorry if this is a stupid question.
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Struggling RPM's...sigh. Comp 980's...or 981's for a touch more pressure.
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Good place to order from?? Never done this before, do I order a tool also to do them on the car?
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Any speed shop. Kirbans tool...hands that don't shake...and a ton of patience putting the locks in by the air con. Dan and I have done 'em in under an hour.
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Why don't you ohm out the coil packs before spending money?
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How do I test them
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Run the engine, get it hot, turn it off. Then pull the plug wires across each coil pack and and measure the resistance between each pair of plug wire terminals on each coil.
Resistance should be about 12,000 ohms on each pack.
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asking-If the springs are floaty it should show up in all the gears at that RPM?
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Well that is one problem! the 2 outside coils read 14.22 and 14.28 but the center one wont even show a reading. repeated test and outside repeated the numbers and middle wont show reading.
Wheres best place to get replacement? Would this be causing my boost problem??
Additional stupid question, how does car even run like this?
Thanks alot Steve!!!
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Car's running on 4 cylinders when the combustion chamber pressure comes up under boost. Check the vendors, or see if summit still sells the Accel coil pack for our cars
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If you can't find the Accel
Glen has the Delco
http://www.nos4gn.com/servlet/the-1/Buick-Grand-National-12353801/Detail (http://www.nos4gn.com/servlet/the-1/Buick-Grand-National-12353801/Detail)
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http://www.summitracing.com/search/product-line/accel-magnavox-style-dis-super-coil-packs?SortBy=BestKeywordMatch&SortOrder=Ascending&autoview=SKU&keyword=accel%20coil (http://www.summitracing.com/search/product-line/accel-magnavox-style-dis-super-coil-packs?SortBy=BestKeywordMatch&SortOrder=Ascending&autoview=SKU&keyword=accel%20coil)
or the one Dave listed
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When you install the new one, be sure the module is well grounded to the mounting bracket and the bracket is well grounded to the back of the engine...don't paint the mounting surfaces
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Thanks so much for all the help! The accel is on back order everywhere til late OCT.. A local parts store has a Master-Pro ( Orilley Auto Parts store brand) that I can get in the morning. If this fixes my problems ( very high hopes!!) I'll be able to get to the track this weekend. I can swap it out this winter for an Accel.
Thanks again!! :cheers:
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might work... Not much luck with junk parts
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which where the aftermarket parts where the tach wouldn't work?
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which where the aftermarket parts where the tach wouldn't work?
Not sure about that Dave. Aftermarket modules will not work with Casper's Coil and Module tester. the GM module is not made by any one these days. Standard makes one that works pretty well and it is cheaper than bob Bailey's unit...but not as good long term, I suspect, altho I saw something about one of them being bad as well.
If there is something that renders the tach inoperative, I would say it had to be the module as that is where the signal comes from.
Problem is that when a coil does not read the right resistance and is run long enuf in that condition, it weakens the module as well. I tend to forget the basics when it comes to trouble shooting because I assume that everyone knows to check to see if the coil packs read between 11-13k ohms, if the maf reads right at idle and wot as well as around 3000 rpm in park, etc. I watch the vacuum all the time to make sure it looks normal and has not changed.
I think I am getting too old for this stuff :)
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Well new coil worked to get it to rev and shift nice. Smoke problem back and will still only push 20 lbs boost with boost controler and wastegate arm maxed out. The smoke is from it pushing oil out the drivers side valve cover breather and maybe even the dipstick tube, hard to tell from the mess in the same area So im assuming that either the drivers side head gasket is going or the rings on the low cylinder are letting boost into the pan. I dont see how a head gasket could cause this so looks like rebuild time??
Still dont understand lack of boost?
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A leak down test will prove if the cylinder is causing the problem. An intake gasket that is not sealing will also cause a ton of blow by as the boost will blow straight into the engine valley and pressurize the oil pan.
I would probably start by verifying that the intake bolts are set to about 30-35 ft-lbs in hope that I found one or two that were not compressing the gasket properly.
If that did not pan out, I would pull the valve cover, remove the rocker shaft so that the valves are closed, remove the #5 plug, thread a air hose fitting into the plug hole and connect my air line to it and do a poor man's quick and dirty leak down. give it a 100 psi of air pressure into the cylinder and, if the rings are gone badly, you should have air coming back out the oil drain holes in the head. (or you can buy a leak down tester and do it properly)
a badly leaking intake gasket will bleed off your boost
If I heard air coming back out of the crankcase thru the drain holes in the head, you know it is rebuild time. If it was not obvious, I would pull the intake and see if the gasket was not sealing.
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Thanks alot Steve. I'll try those things and hope for the best. I really appreciate all the help you have offered!! :cheers:
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I won't be surprised if it is the intake gasket
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I can hear a little air coming out so I also did that test on cyl #1 ( front drivers side) and I also hear a little air coming out there. Sounds almost identical. I can put finger over a drain hole on and off and the air comming out is very slight but very simular in both cylinders. Intake bolts all seem very tight.
Should I have any air coming out at all? Should the difference between 1 & 5 be obvious?
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A little will leak by....bad cylinders will leak a lot more than the good ones. Older the engine, the more that will leak.
If you rig a pressure tester for the plenum and remove both rocker shafts so air cannot go into the cylinders when you pressurize the plenum and intake, you can tell if you have a bad intake gasket seal. I think used a piece of tubing the size of the tb inlet and capped off one end. then install a valve stem in the tubing so you can pump air into it. Clamp the open end in the tb hose. Open the throttle wide open and pump about 30 psi into it. Air will leak past the throttle shaft seals, and any other leaks including a burnt intake valve....if it leaks out immediately, you can figure the intake is not sealed and air is going into the engine valley or into the atmosphere on the outside of the intake
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I'll give that a try. Its just a little air coming thru and almost exactly the same in both I checked so im thinking its not the rings in #5 causing my trouble.
Thanks!!
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Well did the intake test. Air kept leaking past vacuum block. Took it off and replaced gasket with a piece of thick duct tape and put block back on. That sealed it up. Put 20 lbs in and within 5-10 seconds it was down below 10 lbs. Repeated test 4 times. Same result each time. Was very hard to hear any leak so im assuming that confirms its leaking into the engine and not Into atmosphere, causing my oil to be pushed out breather. Have a victor gasket coming tommorrow. Once again I have high hopes this will be the fix!!!
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Look at the current gasket carefully for signs of leakage
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If you have vacuum brakes, be sure the check valve in the Booster is good
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Did you hear any air coming out of the heads?
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Could hear air leaking but couldnt tell where exactly, was muffled not a hiss so I was assuming I was hearing it out the oil drain holes. I had the vacuum block sealed off at the tb so no air could get to any lines. Ill check the booster valve though for when I drive it again. Ill post a pic of the gasket when I get in there.
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I don't know what gasket Victor supplies, but if it does not include the valley pan like the original that keeps the pcv separate from the oil in the valley, cut the pan out of your old one and set it in place under the new gaskets....
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from the picture I saw it has the valley pan. Got it all apart tonight, hope I can remember how to get it all together :icon_eyes: I think I can see where it was leaking into the engine. I am pointing to the area where it looks to me like it was leaking, what do ya think? Anything else I should address while its this far apart? Is there a specific sequence to torque the bolts back down or just work from center out to edges. I bought the turbo buick service manual disk a few years ago, but of course I cant find where I put the dang thing.
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I am not sure what I am looking at :)
The top of the valley pan should be pretty clean. I am not sure what I am looking at. What is all that black stuff on top of the pan below the ports?
Most of the leakage would be below the pan, I think..that is the "oily side".
If the intake is not sealed, it will pull oil from under the pan into the intake ports when the engine is pulling a vacuum and that would provide a smoke screen behind the car. It would not smoke much under boost other than from whatever oil is in the exhaust from the vacuum stage.
I cannot see into the intake ports on the passenger side...if it has been sucking oil out of the valley, I would expect the port bottoms to be oily or black. Also Look down the ports with a flashlight and see if you see a lot of build up on the backside of the intake valves which is a sure sign of leakage. Whether it came from the intake port or past bad intake valve guide seals is another question.
When you install the new gasket, do NOT use any silicone around the ports as silicone turns to jelly when gas gets on it and you will end up with leaks that can suck oil and fumes into the combustion chambers.
Normally, you can take the intake off by disconnecting the fuel line on the passenger side from the rail, return line on the drivers side of the rail, moving the coil pack/bracket, and disconnecting the sensors, injector harness, etc. Then remove the intake bolts and lift everything off as one unit...should not be hard to replace because you essentially took 95% of the stuff all together.
No matter what you read elsewhere, do not tighten the intake bolts past 35 ft'lbs. Below is the page from the manual. Find the CD and load it on your computer, or, download it free if he still has up for download.
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Steve,
Is it possible that either the intake or the heads have been "decked" for straightness and now don't seal properly. Looking at his pics, both sides of the intake gasket appear to have a linear oil line descending from front to rear. Makes me think that the intake is sealing better at the front of the heads and less at the rear. Just my thoughts...
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It crossed my mine..but, normally, if the bolts line up well enough to go thru the intake and into the heads, then it should be fine....
But, there is a case, sometimes, where the intake fits the heads okay, but the front and rear rails of the engine valley are too close to the bottom surfaces of the intake and when you use the seals that come with the intake gasket, they prevent the intake from settling down far enuf when you are tightening the bolts. Using a bead of silicone and not using the supplied seals will normally fix that problem. This happens when the heads and intake has been milled as you suggest.
Placing the intake on the engine without the intake gasket or the end rail gaskets will usually show you if the intake is going to fit okay...the intake bolt holes should be a bit below the holes in the head and the gaps between the intake and the heads will be smaller than the gasket thickness
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Okay, I'll get some pic's of the valves and ports tonight. I dont know what the black stuff is on gasket, I assumed oil residue. Never had a motor this far apart before so I didnt realize that was not normal. I'll also get a pic of the other side of the gasket.
The big question, do I pursue this mystery black stuff further to find/fix cause or do I just install new gasket and hope for the best.
Inside the intake plenum and from what I remember inside the ports is pretty black but I assumed that was from when it had the bad turbo on it and was feeding it oil. Its been driven about 200 miles with new turbo.
It did smoke all the time with the old leaking turbo. Since the new one was installed it only smoked when testing WOT and then only after about 3 passes, the first 2 I couldnt see any smoke behind me. It could set in the garage running and there was no smoke after turbo was replaced....I looked often.
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Not much you can pursue for the moment. I would put it back together, I think, after cleaning it up.Don't use the end seals. Use a bead of silicone instead making sure the four corners where the valley rails connect with the heads have a good dab of silicone in the joint to prevent oil from seeping out there. Run the silicon across the rails making sure there is enough for the intake to seal to it...
A turbo can leak oil on the compressor side and on the exhaust side. The compressor side is easy to check. Pull the hose of the throttlebody and see if there is oil laying in the inlet to the throttlebody. On the exhaust side, you have to pull the exhaust housing off and check for oil coming out of the turbo around the turbine into the housing.
Any air leakage you had when you put air into the plenum had to come from the vacuum block, which you sealed off, around the throttleshaft ends in the throttlebody, which is also normally leaks a little, especially with age as the shaft seals wear, ...or around the iac gasket, throttlebody to plenum gasket, base of the plenum where it is bolted to the intake, intake gasket, or burned intake heads into the combustion chamber.
Blow by that will blow oil out or try to push the dip stick out has to come from either a bad seal of the intake to the heads causing boost to go thru the valley to the oil pan, or, past the compression rings into the oil pan. I have seen cars with enuf leakage to push the dip stick out, but they did not have any compression so I am having a hard time believing the engine needs to be rebuilt. I have been wrong many times in my life.....so
Given the car will not make boost, it has to be a major leak, I think.
The smoke out the tail pipe is really confusing to me-particularly being that it does not show up on the first pass or two...I have no clue if the turbo is not leaking oil
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The turbo is good on both sides. I think the smoke I'm seeing behind me is from it burning off the outside of the header on the drivers side maybe?? and thats why its not until I made a few runs and it pushed enough out to really get on the header and smoke?? It made a big mess in that area but obviously by the time I get off the boost and slow to a stop and get out to open the hood its mostly burned away so under hood smoke wasnt much, it was smokey but not terrible.
Is the "Right Stuff" the best RTV to use?
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some like it...I just use plain black rtv
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I still havent found my disc. Can you tell me the sequence and torque spec for the rocker arm shaft?
Thanks!!!!
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25 ft lbs
I start in the middle and work back and forth gradually tightening them until they are seated. Don't want to risk breaking the shaft by pulling one point down too much at a time
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Thanks!!!
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Well after a few nights I got her back together. Took way more off than was probably required but cleaned some things up while I was at it. Will fire it up tomorrow, let it come up to temp and check for leaks. Supposed to be cold and raining so probably wont be able to do any "boost" testing. I sure hope this does the trick. I eliminated the egr, replaced a bad check valve, zip tied every connection so im positive I will have no vacuum/boost leaks there. I enjoy working on it but a guy needs a victory every once in a while and its been kicking my ass lately!
Thanks for the help. Ill post some good results soon !!!!
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Hope it works!
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maybe a premature victory but it fired up and ran perfectly, went on a 3 mile trip and everything looked good all SM readings were good. Didn't try any boost as we got and inch of snow last night and the roads are covered in wet leaves, maybe Sunday for the boost test.
Also, probably nothing but ever since I got the car the BLM reading has always been a touch low, 118, but reading Steve's site not a huge concern as it was within 10%. So I didn't worry about it. Now its right where its supposed to be at 128? Probably nothing to do with anything but thought I'd mention it.
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Have you checked your line off fuel pressure after the repairs?
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No. Good call! I will this afternoon. 43 line off right?
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No. Good call! I will this afternoon. 43 line off right?
Correct.
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Had a chance to make a few quick runs.......... .SUCCESS!!!!! Zero smoke, snaps to 24lbs and stays right there thru 3rd. SM recorded 0.0 knock and 820 at 89mph so now can do some tuning and if weather holds track day on 10-18.
Thanks for the help :cheers:
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Don't know about you, but that makes me happy cause I was just about out of idea :D
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btw, why don't you show us how you made your leak detector for the intake...
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soup can with valve stem I had laying in toolbox, can was 3 inch and intake coupler is 2.5 so kinda a bitch to get it inserted but worked fine.
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I don't remember if I saw someone use a section out of a bicycle tube or I had that idea...it can be a very useful tool at times...
The thing that kept bothering me is that a TE-44 turbo is capable of flowing about 850 cfm. It takes a heckuva leak to keep it from building boost. That kinda eliminates the average exhaust leak and it's really hard to have that kinda leak past the rings particularly if the rings are sealing well enuf to have good compression
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Can we summarize at this point? leak on the intake gasket, bad coil and ? and ?
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And a bad check valve
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Yup those 3. All appears in order now. Just have to hope the snow stays away til after the 18th so I can see what she runs!!
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tuning question. now set at a bit under defaults for fueling ( 125 in 1/2 and 3/4) its rich at 820 with 24 LBS boost. For best time should I lean out 24 lb boost setting or increase boost to get O2's in the 780 range and then fine tune fueling with chip from there? I'm guessing with this fueling setting I could turn boost up to the 27lb range before I get to 780 O2's?
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I would turn the boost up to get it where I wanted it. I would aim for 25-26 and if still rich, start knocking it down a couple of percent at a time for third gear around 100 mph or more if you have a stretch where you can do it without getting a ticket. At the track, you want the fueling to give you about 750-760 at the finish line with no retard.
I know I have referred you to this from my site a few times, but I will paste it here in case you have never read it.
This is what I do, I set the fueling to 43 (TT chips) and I drive the car until it is fully warmed up and I have done some stop and go driving, then I stop and look at the O2s in gear idling. If they are 780-800 and the car is idling well, I call it good and forget it. Note that the O2s will change when you stop and the O2 sensor starts cooling down so your 780 might increase to 810 in a short period of time. Don't be confused because this is a function of the stock o2 sensor not a change in fueling.
If, when I first stop, the o2s read something like 820, then I reduce the fuel pressure 1-2 psi and try it again, until my first readings upon stopping are in that 780-800 range. Remember that the TT chips are open loop at idle so that first blm cell is not adjusting the fueling like the factory chip. It does have some learning capability, however, so that is what I like to drive the car for a bit before beginning to play with the adjustments.
If everything is right, the O2s should be pretty stable wherever you set them and they should not be jumping around at idle due to the open loop feature. That is why the idle is normally smoother and better.
When you come off idle, then the chip goes to closed loop and the o2s will jump around a lot more as the ecm takes charge.
In essence, you can use the fuel pressure to set up your idle and low speed blms but I only look at the idle O2s first when I stop and the sensor is good and hot.
Now, remember that the fuel pressure affects the entire fueling range so the wot fueling will be a little leaner than what Eric put into his default if you reduced fuel pressure at idle with the HOSE OFF so you need to look at the wot fueling to see if it needs adjusting. Normally, it will probably not be noticeable because the chip was probably a bit rich to begin with for safety's sake. Be sure to put the hose back on the regulator before you drive it again!
Now, having done this, I go to the wide open throttle setting and start dialing it in. This needs to be done at the top of third gear so it will approximate what you will see at the finish line. At this point, I am leaving the timing alone (using the default in the chip) and have the boost set for whatever Eric said the chip was burned for.
If the chip was burned for 25 psi, I would not be surprised to find that the chip was giving plenty of fuel for that boost level and no timing retard was being shown on Powerlogger. If I am leaving the boost at 25 which is generally a good level for the street when using alky, I start removing a bit of fuel-say no more than two numbers at a time and making a run after each adjustment until I see the slightest hint of timing retard. I then add about 3% of fuel back to the wot throttle setting and call it good. I prefer to hae some margin of error-particularly on a street car where ambient conditions can vary widely. This is done with Position 1 in the chip.
Spraying Methanol at 100%, I would expect my oem O2s to be around 780 on the street. When at the track, I might lower my fueling a bit and look for something around 750-760 mv but in all cases, I am not going to accept any timing retard on PowerLogger.
Once I am happy with third gear fueling at the top end, I would look at the O2s in first and second from a launch. Again I want to remove fuel until I am on the verge of timing retard and then add 2-3% back for some margin of safety. I would guess the O2s will be close to 750 mv but the main thing is NO TIMING RETARD.
If you push first and second too much, you will create a lot of heat in the combustion chamber and this may push third gear over the hill so be careful and don't cause detonation in third by going too far in first and second. Tuning is a tedious business and there are no short cuts nor magic numbers.. It is all about what works on your car with its combination and the ambient conditions around it on a given day. That is the reason I like to leave room for a margin of safety. I like living to fight another day instead of fixing what broke because I was too aggressive.
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Thanks Steve, yes I have read that many times :cheers: I mostly wondered about a good boost target, I'll set it at 25 and tune away!
you never know but I'm guessing the track day will have temps in the low 50's so car should run well, tires are the weak link but we have covered that issue :D