IHADAV8.com - Turbo Buick Tech, and Nonsense
Tech Area => General Buick Tech => Topic started by: we4turbobuick on June 09 2013, 01:19:06 AM
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I have a few problems with my car but ill start with the most weird problem that I have. first ill let everyone know what has been done to the car. its a 1987 we4 turbo T all stock but...... scan master, hot wire kit, walbro FP, TT chip burnt for 91, adj FP reg, Ls1 MAF w/ TRANSLATOR, heated O2 sensor, a/c bypass.sometim es my car runs perfect then all of a sudden the idle goes off like it has a miss ....it falls on its face under boost ..... regular driving it sputters when the throttle is pressed lightly. Then all of a sudden it goes back to running flawless :O :O im confused !!!! I don't know whats going on, Or how to troubleshoot this. another problem that is going on is that I have very small sparks that jumping from the alt to the alt pulley where the belt is, but Its so small it can only be seen in pitch dark. there is another small spark jumping from the a/c bypass pulley to the belt as well. installed a ground kit to relocate the ground from behind the heads w/ no luck. I really need a turbo buick experts to help me with this problem. Im ready to :068: my TR. please help !!!
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Did this happen over a period of time and gradually get worse, or did it suddenly occur and the symptoms have been consistent from that point? Had you worked on the car before it started? Did you recently buy the car or have you had it a long time?
I understand from the above that you can see it at idle which makes it a bit easier because you don't have to drive the car to see the problem.
I would start with some basic things such as verifying that the ground cable to the turbo support bracket is firmly bolted down and that the small ground cable off the negative battery post is attached to the inner fender sheet metal as it should be. Check to see if the coil/module is bolted down firmly against the mounting bracket and the bracket is bolted firmly to the intake/plenum.
Make sure the positive battery cable from the battery to the starter is firmly attached to the starter bolt and that neither the cable or the fusible link bundle that attaches to the starter post is touching, or can touch the headers or anything else that could short out the positive feed.
Does the Scan Master show any stored trouble codes and does the SES light come on, or flicker quickly when this problem happens?
Put your volt meter on AC and read the voltage across the battery when the car is idling. It should be less than 0.5 v AC.
I would pull all the spark plugs and see if they all look like they are firing properly and none of them appear to be wet or seem to have not been firing. I would replace them with a new set of properly gapped plugs no matter how they looked.
Then I would look at the Scan Master readings and write down the readings for O2, maf, blm, clt temp, and voltage when the car is idling properly plus I would write down the vacuum reading and the fuel pressure.
Then when the car is idling badly when the problem occurs, write down all the same information again and see if anything stands out as being different.
With the car running, unplug the cam sensor and see if it keeps running right, still incurs the problem, or runs considerably different. Don't forget to replug it after you turn it off or it will not start again.
I suspect the small sparks are static electricity created by the belt rubbing against the pulleys. Unplug the connector off the ac compressor clutch to see if the car runs any differently in case the diode in the connector has gone bad and there is some "back feed" from the clutch coils.
Measure the resistance between the spark plug terminals on each coil pack (engine not running, of course) and see if the resistance falls between 11,000-13,000 ohms on each pack.
Check the base of the egr valve and make sure the clamp bolt is tight and there are zero leaks around the base and gasket. When the car is cold, pull the cover off the egr so you can get to the egr. Put your fingers under the egr and lift the diaphragm up and see if pops back down closed like it should.
Make sure the pcv valve is moving freely in its housing and is not "sticky".
Check the hose connections between the maf and the turbo and make sure all are properly installed and tight so there can be no air leaks. If by any chance you are using the original style hose from maf to to turbo, be absolutely sure there are no holes in it.
Check the hose connections between the intercooler and the throttle body to make sure they are all properly in place and properly sealed.
Check to be sure the crank sensor is not loose and is properly centered over all three of the blades on the balancer.
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Wow!
Awesome info there, Steve..
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I know he posted the LS1 & Translator but thats just how mine acted when I had a bad connection from the harness plug to stock MAF. The Ground wire pin was faulty & I tried about 4 MAF's until we figured it out. Only takes a minute to check that connection.
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put a fuel pressure gauge on it
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I know he posted the LS1 & Translator but thats just how mine acted when I had a bad connection from the harness plug to stock MAF. The Ground wire pin was faulty & I tried about 4 MAF's until we figured it out. Only takes a minute to check that connection.
guessing that would kick out on the scan master numbers when it went nuts?
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I know he posted the LS1 & Translator but thats just how mine acted when I had a bad connection from the harness plug to stock MAF. The Ground wire pin was faulty & I tried about 4 MAF's until we figured it out. Only takes a minute to check that connection.
guessing that would kick out on the scan master numbers when it went nuts?
Correct it would throw a code 34 or whatever MAF number is on SM? I never thought of that when I posted but it sure acted like his description.
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I guess he fixed it.
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im still waiting for it to act up ......... it does it maybe 3 times a week . Im sure ill have some data for you in a few days. but the sparks always show no matter if its running good or not!!
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Awesome info there, Steve..
Wow!
Awesome info there, Steve..
This needs to be linked into the "search" when someone has "weird" car issues.
It covers a lot of questions. :cheers:
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a similar version is on my site in the troubleshootin g section under car does not run right sub group
http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/engine_starts_but_does_not_run_p.htm (http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/engine_starts_but_does_not_run_p.htm)
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Steve I always send them to Vortex & GNTTYPE but especially the new owners. :cheers:
I went to your link & the site is looking Good!!
Especially the pics of the oil pressure sending unit! :player:
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LOL...I chose a professional to do those pics for me!
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Get a room you two
:)
Wonder if those pulleys were powder coated or some unusual paint.
( made from cat fur? :) )
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yikes!
seeing those sparks would make me very very nervous :O
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van de graaff generator
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On my way to work my car started to act up again .... i got the scanmaster numbers ill post them up as soon as i get home..... thanks you guys!!
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hopefully something will look strange
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I thot I'd seen it all with some of the stuff rolling into Dans shop. Definately keeping an eye on this thread. I've come to the conclusion that I'm never gonna see it all when it comes to these cars. As they say...you're never too old to learn.
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When the car is running good at idle the scan master numbers are
O2 ~ 700`s- 800`s
Maf~ 04
Blm~ 133
Clt~ 184
Volts~ 13.6 to 13.8
When its running bad ......
O2~ 00 to low 100`s
Maf~ 04
Blm~ 138
Clt~ 184
Volts~ 14.0 to 14.3
All the turbo and intake connections are tight. The plugs are new and gaped properly. the a/c compressor is not on the car that's why I have the bypass pulley on till I can get it running correctly. The egr diaphragm is popping down. if I unplug the cam sensor it runs worse. The fuel pressure is 32 psi with vac line on 38 psi with it off, and its steady no matter how its running. All the grounds are tight. I know its hard to diagnose the problem when you can't see it. So if you guys are still stumped I might have to get a pro logger So I can share better data with everyone. But anyways.... Does anyone see any thing wrong with my data so far.........?
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well, it ran out of fuel when it started running badly....as to what caused that, I don't know...could be a shortage of fuel, or a big air leak of some kind.
Strange that it ran badly when you unplugged the cam sensor. You should hardly be able to tell the difference. Was it running good when you unplugged it?
The fuel pressure was about right plugged and unplugged, but, it should move a bit when you vary the rpm or load on the engine. The Higher the vacuum reading, the lower the fuel pressure should read and the lower the vacuum, the higher the pressure should be.
So we have a few questions. Why did the o2 read so low when the car ran badly. Why did the car run badly when you unplugged the cam sensor assuming it was running good at the time you unplugged it. I am not sure what happens if the cam sensor is set such that it can jump to the wrong cylinder but? IF the fuel pressure was steady and you were not blipping the throttle, it is probably okay.
Does your boost gauge read vacuum as well as boost? I would assume it the vacuum goes from something like 18 at idle in park to maybe 7? when it acts up?
Did you look at the fuel pressure when it acted up to see if it had dropped down into the 20's?
Just for the heck of it, loosen the clamp on the cam sensor and rotate the sensor counter clockwise about an 1/8" or a hair more and see if it runs better, or has less effect when you unplug it.
it does not look like the blms increased much when it went bad so that is a bit strange.
Does the problem exist when the engine is relatively cold, or only after it gets hot and has been driven for awhile?
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my boost gauge doesnt show vacuum, my fp stays the same....When my car is running good i can uplug the cam sensor and the car runs fine, when its running bad if i unplug it the car runs worse . Another thing i noticed is the car is getting a little harder to start, only when its hot outside when its cool out i will start with a quick twist of the wrist. Thanks for all the help with this problem!!!! Ohh and it doesnt matter if the car is hot or cold ...this problem comes and goes when it wants to.
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For some reason, the O2's dropped off the map when it ran badly.
If the fuel pressure stayed close then I think we can assume it is not a fueling problem from the delivery standpoint. I would like to think that anyway :)
So that makes me wonder if the engine was not firing properly at the time so it was not burning the fuel in the cylinders and that made the O2's wonky. Wonky is a canadian tech term.
So, I would probably swap the coil/module pack between my cars, and then the ecms....good reason to own more than one of these things.
Otherwise I would put my caspers coil tester on and see if I got a good solid spark
Or, I might separate the module from the coil pack and see if the "filling" was melting which is usually a sign of impending failure.
I don't know how one lives without a vacuum reading?
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I dont mean to get off the subject but can u tell me what this plug and wire is? And where does it plug in at ......the other end right now goes to a switch under the dash that the last owner installed when i touch the wire the fan shuts off. Im trying to get everything fix what was rigged up.... thanks again!!
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without knowing where the wires are connected, who knows? It sounds like someone rigged a manual fan switch to run the fan when the car was turned off, but, why the fan quits when you touch a wire, I have not a clue without having some idea as to where the wires run
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Here is a pic
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The fan quits because the wire doesn't fit the connector very well
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Not sure what I am looking at there, but someone rigged the wiring...eithe r because they thought it was something trick or because something was broken.
Fan wiring diagram at the bottom of this page http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/fan.htm (http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/fan.htm)
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Thanks for your expertise. Im getting a new coil and module and have the cam sensor checked out. And I do have a vacuum gauge but not on the boost gauge. I might just also replace the ecm with one that is known to work. I'll keep you updated, with any updates.
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Do you have a reason to buy all that stuff?
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Are those bare wires running thru the firewall without a grommet or sleeve?
Do yourself a favour and fix that first.
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Not sure what I am looking at there, but someone rigged the wiring...eithe r because they thought it was something trick or because something was broken.
Fan wiring diagram at the bottom of this page http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/fan.htm (http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/fan.htm)
That green wire round plug looks like #27 the Coolant temp Sensor??
http://www.gnttype.org/maint/sensors.html#SENSOR (http://www.gnttype.org/maint/sensors.html#SENSOR)
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I don't have to buy the coil and module ..... have a lifetime warranty for those .... so that plug plugs into the block ?
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goes to the high speed fan switch sensor
http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/sensorcomponent_locations.htm (http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/sensorcomponent_locations.htm)
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here goes a video of my car when is running bad
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHzO1PGILnc&feature=youtube_gdata_player (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHzO1PGILnc&feature=youtube_gdata_player)
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Other then the radio sounds good, Scanmaster didn't show us nothing and you didn't video the engine.
Maybe you can try again, but this time run the video a bit longer to engine at idle and higher rpm, and also show all Scanmaster numbers.
here goes a video of my car when is running bad
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHzO1PGILnc&feature=youtube_gdata_player (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHzO1PGILnc&feature=youtube_gdata_player)
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Ok i got a new module the coil tested good . Now im gonna get another ecm cause im not sure if my has a problem . Can anyone tell me what a cal pak is and what it does. I see it as a option for a new ecm.
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It's the smaller chip under the normal chip in the ecm. Just pull it out of the old ecm and put it in the new ecm. It has the limp home stuff in it and does not normally affect how the car drives
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Ohh Snap!!, i got another problem i was changing my air filter put it back together now it runs like crap! I unplugged maf it ran better at idle until i press the gas. No check engine light or codes even when the maf is unplugged. I thought i would get a light or code when the maf is unplugged. Seems like maf took a dump, whats your take on the new issue? Seem like before i can fix one problem another shows its ugly face.......I'm frustrated!!!
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Ohh yeah the O2`s are staying at 000 .....?
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what is your fuel pressure at this moment?
What maf numbers is the SM showing at idle now?
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The fuel pressure is the same ..... ill check the maf reading as soon as i get home....does this sound like a bad maf to you?
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late model mafs don't fail very often....so I don't know. 000 o2s usually mean low fuel pressure or a very high maf reading.
Check your blms as well.
What chip did you say you had in the car?
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Turbo tweak
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Ok ... i just got home the fuel pressure is around 35 psi the AF is 04 the blm`s are 128 ..... the maf sensor was used ......
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35 with the hose on the regulator and the car running? maf and blms are correct. Be sure the car is warmed up and in closed loop otherwise those numbers may change
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Ok, i noticed something when i unplug the translator from the harness it will idle fine ..... plug it back up it and i have a bad running car ....... if i leave the translator plugged into the harness and unplug the maf i still have a crappy running car. what do you think ?
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35 with the hose on the regulator and the car running? maf and blms are correct. Be sure the car is warmed up and in closed loop otherwise those numbers may change
Yes the fp is around 35..... it moves around 34 -35 psi cause the car is barely running if i give it any pedal at all it will just die.
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I'm grasping at straws. Have you got the dip switches in the Translator set to on on on off...and do you have the base knob set correctly for your MAF?
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If the hose is on the regulator, then that is about the right fuel pressure. If the car was warmed up...temperatu re above 160 degs, then the blms were right and the maf was reading properly for idle. What does not fit into the above is an o2 reading of 000
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Steve, I know you hate throwing parts at these cars...but going back...he hasn't swapped out the 02 sensor.
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Cheapest thing he can throw. I don't like any thing other than the single wire sensor. Wonder why the Blms are not pegged tho
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No idea. I saw Eric recommending to a gentleman yesterday to swap out the 02 sensor cuz it was locked at 400. Figured it was dead.
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yep, that makes sense. but if the o2 is telling the ecm that the car is lean, the ecm should add a ton of fuel and put the blms at 150-that is what I can't wrap my arms around
A denso is cheap...worth a try
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Lots of things I don't think about. I reinstalled the transmission back in that 79 Trans Am. Starter wouldn't kick over. Pull it back out and put 12 volts to it and ground the body of it and it flies out and spins. WTF?! Wires are fine that attach to it from the wiring harness. I slide underneath to check if there's any wire I forgot to attach...nothi ng...all accounted for. I notice what appears to be a factory ground wire attached to the sheet metal...and the end is tucked up under the frame. I pull it out and it makes a perfect route to one of the starter bolts. Starter has to be grounded to the sheet metal? Bolted it up...with the ground...spun out and engaged. The weird part...is that ground strap wasn't attached when I removed the starter when I pulled the transmission.. .and the starter was acting normally. I told myself out loud to not think about it. Thank God I'm not a deep thinker.
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I'm grasping at straws. Have you got the dip switches in the Translator set to on on on off...and do you have the base knob set correctly for your MAF?
Yes, the jumpers are all set right the base is set correct the WOT is set @ 0 does this sound like a translator problem ? Does anyone know of a way to make sure the translator is working right? The car is running the same way when my maf connector came loose i plugged it back up and it was fine. What should be my next move?
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If the maf readings are correct...and the one at idle was correct....the n it is not a Translator problem
Need another point to be sure, tho...but that meant it was set right
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Just in case you have one of those cheap little fuel pressure gauges that usually are wrong...crank the fpr up to about 55 psi and see what happens
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Since the o2`s are wacked out u think it can be the o2 sensor ? I just put it in a month ago. Think it could of went bad already ? I thought the heated o2`s were more durable than the single wire ones.......?
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that is probably not true. The heated sensors warm up faster, but they don't fail like the regular sensor does. they lose range and they don't always code like the one wire units. I would doubt it is bad, but less than 20 bucks will get you a good Denso sensor made for your cars.
If the o2 is bad, the car will run okay until it warms up and goes into closed loop mode.
As the car is acting like it is not getting fuel, I suggested turning up the pressure and seeing if there is a change in how it tries to run.
I think I also asked if you had looked at the bottom of the ignition module to see if it was gooey/melted which would be a sign it was failing. Maybe that was someone else
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I had an 02 sensor go south on me once. Car would drive normally for a while...and then get a miss in it...then drive normal...and on and on. Did it for a couple weeks. One day I was driving along and it started pouring black smoke out of it. 02 sensor had gone on it. Never kicked a code or anything.
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I think i narrowed my problem to two things the translator or the maf sensor. I found this out by putting the stock maf on and the car idles good ,but when i install the translator and Lt1 maf it goes to barely running. Is there a way to tell which one is bad?
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If the maf readings are correct...and the one at idle was correct....the n it is not a Translator problem
Need another point to be sure, tho...but that meant it was set right
So it does not make any sense to me. If the ecm is reading 04 for maf input, that should make it have all the input it needs to have the idle controlled.
If the maf/translator is the problem in spite of the above, I have no idea how to separate the two without swapping one out. Would be cheaper/easier to try another maf, I think. Earl was selling some that he tested out...or go to a parts store and get one and then return it if it does not fix the problem?
Borrow one from someone, or wrecking yard.
I am sure that more than one translator has failed...elect ronics are not 100% reliable, 100% of the time.
Does it keep running when you blip the throttle?
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If i got to the parts store what year ,make, model do i get for a Lt1 3.0" ?
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Earl is the maf expert...but I think the 96 Impala SS used the 3" Lt1 version
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http://www.ihadav8.com/forum/index.php?topic=4059.0 (http://www.ihadav8.com/forum/index.php?topic=4059.0)
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I got a new stock version O2 sensor and its doing the same thing. Can this be a computer problem ? it just runs bad when I plug the translator. it even idle ok ... without anything plugged into the MAF connector on harness..... :hmm
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unplugged, the ecm goes into limp home mode, turns on the check engine light, and allows the engine to run--poorly when you open the throttle but it should idle.
When you connect the stock maf, do the O2s read 000?
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it stays in the 700 -800+ range .... the only time it stays at 000 o2's is when the translator is plugged up ..... one other thing I noticed when I opened the translator it smells burnt.....
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Thanks all a new maf fixed my idle problem! I still have my original problem With car sputtering at will. Im gonna get a powerlogger then maybe you guys can help me narrow this issue down !! Thanks you guys again ill be back with real data soon!!!
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that was a strange one! at least you made some progress :)
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can a ecm be bad or have issues without it throwing a code? I know that with the turbo tweak chip my o2's should be in the 700-800's. it keep falling below 100 or be stuck on 000. Are there any other parts or sensors can be bad that can cause this the only one that I can think of is the ecm ..... but im just guessing.
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It is possible but not very probable.
You can check the o2 sensor voltage with a meter and see if it is showing that under the hood.
If it is not, then I would look at my grounds on the back of the head to be sure all are snugged down with no wires loose in the crimp on connectors and no wires broken off.
Otherwise, it would seem to be a fuel pressure problem. Did you ever turn the fuel pressure up to 50 or more to see if the symptoms changed?
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Also, when the sm reads 000, is the sm light blinking like the car is in open loop?
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can a ecm be bad or have issues without it throwing a code? I know that with the turbo tweak chip my o2's should be in the 700-800's. it keep falling below 100 or be stuck on 000. Are there any other parts or sensors can be bad that can cause this the only one that I can think of is the ecm ..... but im just guessing.
Steve's gonna get pissed at me again...but have you got a spare ECM you could try?
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Never been pissed off at you! sometimes you gotta forget science and try anything you got!
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It is possible but not very probable.
You can check the o2 sensor voltage with a meter and see if it is showing that under the hood.
If it is not, then I would look at my grounds on the back of the head to be sure all are snugged down with no wires loose in the crimp on connectors and no wires broken off.
Otherwise, it would seem to be a fuel pressure problem. Did you ever turn the fuel pressure up to 50 or more to see if the symptoms changed?
I turned the the fp up to 50 psi the car idled fine the o2's were in the 700-800`s but when you drive it still sputters.
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can a ecm be bad or have issues without it throwing a code? I know that with the turbo tweak chip my o2's should be in the 700-800's. it keep falling below 100 or be stuck on 000. Are there any other parts or sensors can be bad that can cause this the only one that I can think of is the ecm ..... but im just guessing.
Steve's gonna get pissed at me again...but have you got a spare ECM you could try?
Cool do you live in denver, co?
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so it sounds like it is not getting fuel...I would guess that your fuel gauge is wrong and if it is a rail mount, I am not surprised.
But since it sputters when you drive it, I am thinking there is a delivery problem as well which may be the pump dying, or an obstruction in the fuel line, or filter. Now, we need a fuel guage on a hose so you can set it on the windshield and see if it falls when you drive (pressure falls)
Brad's one of those Canadians....:)
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What do the O2s do when it starts to sputter....it may well be something other than the fuel system
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What do the O2s do when it starts to sputter....it may well be something other than the fuel system
When it starts to sputter the o2`s stay stuck on 000 or below 100
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so they say the car has run out of fuel. Need to confirm that with a fuel pressure reading
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is there a issue with the walbo pumps ? I just put one on two months ago .... can it be going out already ?
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Some think they are more problem prone than others and a couple of years ago, the one that started with F in the parts number was failing left and right. Some say it was fixed, but, I am not so sure. There are also a lot of counterfeit Walbros reportedly on the market...but I have seen other brands fail as well. Saw a new DW pump fail recently.
Then, there are problems that occur because the hose in the tank that goes to the pump was not tightened enuf, or was overtightened and cracked the hose....and problems with the ground wire, etc.
A fuel pressure test will tell the tale.
Given that the o2s stopped going to 000 at idle with an increase in pressure, I am guessing that was the gauge and the o2 sensor is working properly. Given that they fall to 000 when driving and the car sputters, it seems to me that you have a fuel delivery problem. I would guess a pump problem but it could be electrical, or the pump hose, etc.
I am like Ronald Reagan, I only trust when I can verify
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can a bad injector O ring cause this ?
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not in anyway I can conceive
You will avoid a lot of grief with these cars by owning a decent fuel gauge....way too many have been blown up from lack of fuel.
As a quick check, you can pull the schraeder valve out of the end of the fuel rail, slipping a hose over the threads, stick the hose in a gallon container, touch the fuel pump test lead to the back of the alternator battery post and see if it pumps a gallon in one minute, or less.
That's not necessarily a good test for running under boost, but it should tell you that you have enough fuel to at least drive it around. I would let it idle for a bit to warm the pump up a bit
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what is a fuel pump test lead?
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It is one of the two connectors that come out of the wiring harness just below the alternator. The fuel pump test connector is the one with a single wire. the one with two wires is the tach test connector where you can connect a test tach
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It is one of the two connectors that come out of the wiring harness just below the alternator. The fuel pump test connector is the one with a single wire. the one with two wires is the tach test connector where you can connect a test tach
I think I see a problem ...... there is a wire already plugged in the fuel pump test connector its going to the fuel pump hot wire kit that the last owner installed ... so that's raising red flags to me right now !!!! should anything be plugged in the fuel pump test connector ?
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it goes hot when the key is turned on for a couple of seconds. It makes a good trigger for a hot wire relay. that is the way my cars are rigged.
If you put 12 volts to it, the fuel pump will run even with the key off.
As the car is hot wired, you need to leave it connected while applying voltage to it
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can the relay be going bad I don't know how long it was hooked up I know the kit most likely killed the stock fuel pump...?
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the stock wiring is disconnected at the rear when a hot wire is connected.
given the symptoms that went away at idle when the pressure was turned up, it does not sound like a relay problem but you can stick another relay in there and find out...or you can go to the fuel tank and see if you can reconnect the factory wire.
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OK.
Steve is clearly asking for accurate fuel pressure readings.
Get that done before you start trying to diagnose unrelated issues. Focus on and follow the advice being given, you will get through this.
Do not rely on the gauge you are currently using. If you don't have a known good pressure gauge/setup, go to your local chain parts house, you should be able to borrow a fuel pressure gauge. You can grab a cheap FP testing kit from harbor Freight, it's not a bad investment.
If nothing else, you can check and see how accurate your rail mount gauge is.
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Thanks for the info...... im gonna get a better fuel gauge and go from there!! I will keep you updated !! and what should the pressure be around w/ the vacuum line off or should I go by the BL's?
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