IHADAV8.com - Turbo Buick Tech, and Nonsense
Tech Area => General Buick Tech => Topic started by: phil_long on August 14 2012, 11:09:18 AM
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I have been researching and reading, more researching and doing more reading about diff types of alky kits and why some prefer one over the other(basically progressive vs non progressive). My question that I have that I couldn't find the answer to: why is the knob normally setup so early to come on? Most guys that I have read seem to have their alky start to spray at around 8 lbs or so. I dont understand the purpose of that seeing that many of us run upwards of 17 lbs of boost on pump gas with no problem. So with a progressive kit, i understand the functionality of it and think its a great invention(eliminates transitional knock?). I also can understand if someone is on a budget why they'd want to go another route. Would they have to deal with the "bogging" if they didn't have the knob set to spray so early? I may be answering my own question here, but I'm assuming it's due to how high the timing is set that one would have the alky spraying so early. Thanks
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I'll take a guess at it? I would think that by the time the pump is told to turn on & the alchy is actually in the motor would be maybe 1 second. (Just a number) Now when you floor it going from 8lbs to 17lbs probably only takes a 1 second. Once it's spooling the boost shoots up pretty quick.
So the 1 second for each should meet together more or less??
With the progressive I ASSume it starts spraying slower until it's told to spray Max Flow?
Maybe that accounts for the 1 second as well??
Again, just a guess?? :chin:
Now let the pro's answer & see how far off I am?? :rofl:
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I'll take a guess at it? I would think that by the time the pump is told to turn on & the alchy is actually in the motor would be maybe 1 second. (Just a number) Now when you floor it going from 8lbs to 17lbs probably only takes a 1 second. Once it's spooling the boost shoots up pretty quick.
So the 1 second for each should meet together more or less??
With the progressive I ASSume it starts spraying slower until it's told to spray Max Flow?
Maybe that accounts for the 1 second as well??
Again, just a guess?? :chin:
Now let the pro's answer & see how far off I am?? :rofl:
I was thinking about a delay as well when I initially asked the question. I figured it would be darn near instantaneous to the cut on point. Ideally, I wouldnt have it start spraying at 17 lbs(more like 13lbs or so), but to avoid the bogging if one had a non-progressive, or to conserve methanol if one has a progressive kit. Thanks for the thoughts Supersix! :)
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And you should stop discrediting yourself because you know a lot more than the avg guy about these cars!! :rock:
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Even a broken clock reads right twice a day!! Thanks! :atbeer:
PS: You can open Razors control box & adjust the start point but he reccomends the average guy should just leave it how he sets them at about the 8lb mark.
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Even a broken clock reads right twice a day!! Thanks! :atbeer:
PS: You can open Razors control box & adjust the start point but he reccomends the average guy should just leave it how he sets them at about the 8lb mark.
I've always liked that qoute!! Lol. And yeah, thats what I figured. About the 8lb mark.
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It really depends on the combination you are running. Most of us may not need any alky until the boost hits about 18 psi.
In the early days, before progressive kits came along, we often had a problem with timing the alky so that we did not bog the engine with too much too soon, or too little too late which caused a transitional knock as the boost shot up.
The characteristic of alcohol is that it burns cooler than gasoline. This means, if we were running on straight alcohol, we would have to burn about twice as much alky as we would gasoline in order to make an equivalent heat for the same horsepower.
If we have a car that has a hard time spooling the turbo (it needs more heat to get it moving) and we spray the alky either too early, or too much too early, then the car will be slow to build boost because the mixture in the chamber is burning cooler. Therefore the trick is to get the turbo making boost as quickly as possible so there is power at launch.
In this case, we may wish to delay the alky until the boost is around 10-12 and then start spraying. If the alky kit has a gain control, we may want to ramp up the alky to come on in more volume once it does start to spray so that by the time we get to something like 18, we have enuf to prevent detonation as the boost comes up to higher levels.
If we have a car with too loose a converter, too small a turbo, or it simply makes more power than we have traction, we might spray the alky a little earlier to take the excessive power at launch down a notch in order to keep from blowing the tires away.
In most cases, I like to start around ten psi, or with a bigger turbo, tighter converter...ma ybe 12 or so.
Like most things with cars, there are a lot of magic numbers out there, but, the trick is to understand the process and customize it to your own car. I suspect most guys with quick cars don't pay much attention to what other guys claim to be the answer other than take it as a starting point.
One of the mistakes I often see is that guys are running 20 psi and spraying enuf alky to run 25-27 psi. Basically, they are flooding the engine and killing the power. It takes very little alky to run 20 psi and the kit makers are aimed at a lot more boost.
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Ok, that makes sense. So a lot of trial and error in order to dial it in. I enjoyed reading all the old threads on TBS.com and reading Stevemon go back in forth with Razor and others. IDK why that was funny to me. Anywho, i initially asked this question because I'm going to purchase those 42lb injectors with the chip from turbotweak at the end of the month. I plan to run alky one day, but I dont necessarily have to have the chip burned for it right? I think the only thing that changes within the chip is the timing?. I really want to maximize what i have before I start buying parts. AND, i have an old non-progressive kit thats been laying around for a while. Worked great from the car it was uninstalled from. I'm debating giving it a go or not. Thanks for the respones guys. BTW, i fixed my tail lamps. :D
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Eric usually pulls a little fuel out of the chip when he burns an alky chip along with some other things. Just order a regular chip. You can vary timing and wot fuel thru the programming part of the chip.
So, are you going to tell us what you fixed so the next guy can benefit from your experience?
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I presume he adds timing on an alky chip? Any Idea on when and how much?
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depends on your combo...someth ing like 2 degs on both 1/2 and 3/4 is probably typical
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Eric usually pulls a little fuel out of the chip when he burns an alky chip along with some other things. Just order a regular chip. You can vary timing and wot fuel thru the programming part of the chip.
So, are you going to tell us what you fixed so the next guy can benefit from your experience?
Absolutely!! Turned out to be an intermittent connection going into the P7(white wire) as you guys had suggested. I cut the white wire on both connectors and just mated them with a spade end and a female end(kinda like a plug). Brake lights right up!
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Eric usually pulls a little fuel out of the chip when he burns an alky chip along with some other things. Just order a regular chip. You can vary timing and wot fuel thru the programming part of the chip.
So, are you going to tell us what you fixed so the next guy can benefit from your experience?
Absolutely!! Turned out to be an intermittent connection going into the P7(white wire) as you guys had suggested. I cut the white wire on both connectors and just mated them with a spade end and a female end(kinda like a plug). Brake lights right up!
Shit - I forgot all about the P7 wire corroding... Happened to me MANY years ago..
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Eric usually pulls a little fuel out of the chip when he burns an alky chip along with some other things. Just order a regular chip. You can vary timing and wot fuel thru the programming part of the chip.
So, are you going to tell us what you fixed so the next guy can benefit from your experience?
Absolutely!! Turned out to be an intermittent connection going into the P7(white wire) as you guys had suggested. I cut the white wire on both connectors and just mated them with a spade end and a female end(kinda like a plug). Brake lights right up!
yep, it is the number one problem for rear brake light failure over the years
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yeah, yall rock for helping me on that one!!!
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I forgot that I had added this page a few months ago
http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/alcohol.html (http://www.vortexbuicks-etc.com/alcohol.html)
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Thanks Steve. Thats a good read. Im afraid to run boost levels that. I only feel like something bad will happen.
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no point in an alky system then :)
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no point in an alky system then :)
Lol. I'm gone take a chance and do it!!! I was just saying.. :D