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Tech Area => General Buick Tech => Topic started by: ledzeppac on January 12 2006, 12:40:08 PM

Title: knock on tools
Post by: ledzeppac on January 12 2006, 12:40:08 PM
Has anyone ever experience different knock counts on different scan tools?
I show very little knock on an OTC type scan tool and a good 4.5.6.7... on my scanmaster...

Philly Phil
Title: knock on tools
Post by: 87natty on January 12 2006, 04:37:21 PM
Hmm, how's your SM hooked up? Off the ECM or the ALDL link or is it off the knock sensor itself?. There may be a difference. I've asked this before at TBs, and nobody could give a definitive answer.
Title: knock on tools
Post by: ledzeppac on January 12 2006, 05:05:16 PM
ALDL....

Top row second one in from left to right....

Morgan's hand held OTC type thing also connects to the ALDL
Title: Re: knock on tools
Post by: DCEPTCN on January 12 2006, 07:26:16 PM
My knock guage and SM seem to disagree on general severity.


Silly Syl
Title: knock on tools
Post by: 87natty on January 12 2006, 09:03:53 PM
My ANS knock alert and SM flash together. There's nothing to show intensity on the ANS thing.
Title: knock on tools
Post by: ledzeppac on January 12 2006, 09:06:27 PM
thanks guys
Title: Re: knock on tools
Post by: Ttype83 on January 12 2006, 10:11:55 PM
The SM conections need to be soldered not just a quick connect. Check your amps on the Alt to see how much it's putting out (unlike the GF). A weak spark will give you spark knock or to much fuel will give you a rich knock.
 Does the SM show the timing being pulled when it's knocking?
Do you have a logging tool like DS or TL to log a good run with the knock?
Title: Re: knock on tools
Post by: Recklessrob on January 13 2006, 01:04:48 AM
My scanmaster reads different than my laptop, or any of my various
scan tools. I thought that was odd too.
Title: knock on tools
Post by: 87natty on January 13 2006, 01:23:04 AM
I've always wondered this, as maybe going right off the knock sensor would be a more accurate reading, as the ECU only gets signal every 1.4 seconds or so. As Jim said, it could be a matter of resistance or voltage drop. Who knows?
Title: Re: knock on tools
Post by: Recklessrob on January 16 2006, 01:20:24 AM
Everything still reads through the ALDL connector. I personally
think that the scanmaster is programmed a little off. IMO
Title: Re: knock on tools
Post by: sun dog on January 16 2006, 01:24:45 AM
What will happen if you pull the wire off the knock sensor?  Will it take it up to the max deg retard?  Wouldn't hurt to see if you still get knock then.
Title: Re: knock on tools
Post by: Recklessrob on January 16 2006, 01:48:51 AM
Quote from: "sun dog @ Mon Jan 16, 2006 1:24 am"
What will happen if you pull the wire off the knock sensor?
Title: Re: knock on tools
Post by: sun dog on January 16 2006, 01:52:57 AM
I was wondering since most of those systems are set up to default to protect the car, when the part goes bad.  Maybe that ESC is bad since he was getting that code 42 before.  If that is bad it might be giving different/variable responses after it heats up.  What about unplugging the ESC?
Title: Re: knock on tools
Post by: ledzeppac on January 16 2006, 02:16:03 AM
Quote from: "sun dog @ Sun Jan 15, 2006 10:52 pm"
I was wondering since most of those systems are set up to default to protect the car, when the part goes bad.
Title: Re: knock on tools
Post by: Recklessrob on January 16 2006, 02:35:12 AM
I'm not sure whether or not the car will run with the esc unplugged.
Let us know. You may set some codes doing so, but they'll clear
if you unplug the orange wire from the battery for 10 seconds or more.
Title: Re: knock on tools
Post by: sun dog on January 16 2006, 09:31:37 PM
Quote from: "Recklessrob @ Sun Jan 15, 2006 11:35 pm"
I'm not sure whether or not the car will run with the esc unplugged.  
Let us know. You may set some codes doing so, but they'll clear  
if you unplug the orange wire from the battery for 10 seconds or more.
 
  
Screwed around with the ESC and Knock sensor today.  I'm not familiar with the scanmaster and what info it gives you.  I use a Pro Link scan tool and get a about 30 or so parameters.  
  
With nothing unplugged I get knock counts.  No deg retard.  
With the knock sensor unplugged I get no knock signal counts. No deg retard.  
With the ESC unplugged, it will start and run fine but I get instant 2 to 9 deg of retard, and knock signal counts.  I also got trouble code 43 ESC failure    
With the ESC and Knock unplugged I get 2 to 9 deg retard and knock counts, even though the sensor is unplugged.  I guess the computer is making up signals?  
  
Phil, are you getting knock counts and knock deg retard on the scanmaster reading?  
The knock counter is an advancing number until it hits 255 then it resets to zero, so it will stay at the last number it was at until it advances enough to reset.  Maybe you were seeing a higher reading on the other scanner because it advanced.  
  
As far as the integrator and block learn numbers higher than 128 are adding fuel and lower are subtracting.  It might be low fuel pressure, exhaust leaks, or injector problems.  Is the O2 moving up and down in voltage and are you getting crossovers?  Are you in closed loop?  Are you getting a coolant temp reading?  When your BL goes up is the integrator at 128?

It's always more fun to figure out someone elses car problems than your own.




    
  
 :smt071  :psix;
Title: Re: knock on tools
Post by: 87natty on January 16 2006, 09:59:59 PM
:prayer:  To your research!
Title: knock on tools
Post by: ledzeppac on January 17 2006, 05:53:59 PM
hmmmm  when the ESC is disconnected are you getting knock when in boost or just normal driving?
Title: Re: knock on tools
Post by: Be4u on January 17 2006, 07:16:46 PM
WATCH OUT!!!!! Phil is on to something!!!
Title: knock on tools
Post by: sun dog on January 17 2006, 11:31:59 PM
Quote from: "ledzeppac @ Tue Jan 17, 2006 2:53 pm"
hmmmm  when the ESC is disconnected are you getting knock when in boost or just normal driving?

 
I was in park for all of this.  I wanted to see what the computer would do with the ESC failure(unplugged).  From what I saw I was getting between 2-9 deg retard just idling and revving up.  Before I unplugged it I got no retarding, so I guess the computer bumped it up like in limp home mode to protect it self.
 
Is the 4.5.6.7 (deg retarding?) you were talking about only under boost, was it knocking at the same time it retarded?  Can you hear the engine knock and see knock counts go up?  You need a scanner with a flight recorder, or get someone to stare at it while you are driving and it happens.
 
We need a new list of what it's doing, I forgot what the original problem was now.  Did you upgrade your injectors and fuel pump when you put the bigger turbo on?
Title: Re: knock on tools
Post by: Recklessrob on January 18 2006, 01:10:39 AM
I'm with Natty, Nice research. :prayer:

As for knock with these cars. If its bad enough so you can hear it,
theres been some damage. The knock sensor is way more sesative.
Title: knock on tools
Post by: ledzeppac on January 18 2006, 09:57:41 PM
So it is even worth trying a new knock sensor and ESC module?
Title: knock on tools
Post by: sun dog on January 19 2006, 12:10:06 AM
Quote from: "ledzeppac @ Wed Jan 18, 2006 6:57 pm"
So it is even worth trying a new knock sensor and ESC module?
 
  
I would say No.  I think I would just unplug the ESC while it's idling just to rule it out, and if it makes any difference in numbers it was probably working OK.  I wouldn't recommend driving it with the module disconnected.  So the only major complaint is the knock retard under boost, Or is it affecting drivability?  How's the oil pressure? are you sure the sensor isn't picking up excessive rod bearing wear.
Title: knock on tools
Post by: ledzeppac on January 19 2006, 04:42:00 AM
oil pressure is great... perfect

15 or so idle and 40-50 cruise
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