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Tech Area => General Buick Tech => Topic started by: SuperSix on August 22 2011, 11:18:03 AM

Title: Fuel pump questions
Post by: SuperSix on August 22 2011, 11:18:03 AM
Are the $169.00 Deatschwerks pumps really that much better than the $89.00 Walbro 340 or the $89.00 Siemans 300Lph?
http://www.racetronix.biz/itemdesc.asp?ic=SM320B&eq=&Tp= (http://www.racetronix.biz/itemdesc.asp?ic=SM320B&eq=&Tp=)

I was told the GN has a Red's XP, but the car hasn't run since ~2005, It's got to be trash by now.

Setup will be TA49, 60lb, stock heads..
Title: Re: Fuel pump questions
Post by: Steve Wood on August 22 2011, 11:24:11 AM
No one really knows as they are too new.  People rave about their three year warranty, but, who knows if that means the pumps are really better or that is good marketing?  I have already heard about one failure.  I installed one in one of my cars and it has made about 125 miles so far :D  I bet it has a German name and is made in China, but I could be wrong.

I would probably buy a Walbro from Mike Licht and save the money

Title: Re: Fuel pump questions
Post by: SuperSix on August 22 2011, 12:20:20 PM
I decided against the Siemans - NO warranty whatsoever..
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/advertiser-specials/351949-new-siemens-hp-fuel-pumps-300lph.html#post2818982 (http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/advertiser-specials/351949-new-siemens-hp-fuel-pumps-300lph.html#post2818982)

Doesn't look like the DW pumps are anything special for my needs, i can't justify the added expense.

The 87T has a Wally 307 in it, and has been great.

I can't find warranty for the GSS340 info on either Racetronix or FullThrottleTe ch - I need at least a 6mo - 1yr warranty.
This looks like the best bet.
http://www.fullthrottlespeed.com/customkititems.asp+kc+834GMHP+eq+ (http://www.fullthrottlespeed.com/customkititems.asp+kc+834GMHP+eq+)
Title: Re: Fuel pump questions
Post by: Steve Wood on August 22 2011, 01:34:25 PM
I think so...don't know what the available extended warranty is..but, I guess that implies there is a warranty
Title: Re: Fuel pump questions
Post by: daveismissing on August 22 2011, 01:41:42 PM
The Deatsch brothers "manufacture" in Oklahoma. They do injector cleaning too so they must at least have testing capability onsite.

Maybe 2000 miles on mine. How old were those Walbros when they started failing?
Title: Re: Fuel pump questions
Post by: SuperSix on August 22 2011, 01:42:48 PM
I got confirmation from Mike Licht - no warranty on the Walbros either.

WTF?
Title: Re: Fuel pump questions
Post by: Steve Wood on August 22 2011, 02:38:12 PM
The Deatsch brothers "manufacture" in Oklahoma. They do injector cleaning too so they must at least have testing capability onsite.

Maybe 2000 miles on mine. How old were those Walbros when they started failing?


There was one series of Walbro that failed anywhere from the moment they were installed to a 1000 miles or so.  Walbro admitted a problem and fixed it.
Title: Re: Fuel pump questions
Post by: ttipe on August 23 2011, 10:12:09 PM
I run a Denso 280 and it is awesome.I can feed a static set of 60's without a volt booster.I'm not in favor of buying "oriental junk" but this pump is the only single that does not fade at 70 psi.This is the twin turbo supra pump.An OEM is not going to release a fuel pump that is a warranty risk.Just the size of the armature moment says that this pump creates more torque than the walbro.Torque is the ability to do work.Does the max amp draw of about 18 amps suggest that it creates so much heat instead of moving a lot of gas.The conservation of energy supports the fact that energy is not lost but converted.The pump in my tank is not burning up so is must be pushing gas.The way some of these new pumps are tested is extremely questionable.T hey publish fuel curves which do not reflect flow volumes through a fuel  system.
Title: Re: Fuel pump questions
Post by: Steve Wood on August 24 2011, 12:04:37 AM
I would guess that it is the best quality pump.  Once in awhile, I hear about a failure but they were built to survive as you say
Title: Re: Fuel pump questions
Post by: SuperSix on August 24 2011, 10:05:48 AM
Damn - that thing is HUGE..

I assume the install required copious amounts of worm clamps or cable ties?

Denso Fuel Pump 280Lph - Whats in the Box? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zX_O8IJ18zY#noexternalembed-ws)
Title: Re: Fuel pump questions
Post by: ttipe on August 24 2011, 10:41:38 AM
Just a heads up about the "oriental crap basher pump";Find some other in tank single that does in a few cases over power the fuel return.
Title: Re: Fuel pump questions
Post by: SuperSix on August 24 2011, 11:05:24 AM
There's rumors that the DW pump overpowers the return line too.

I decided on a Walbro GS340M.
Title: Re: Fuel pump questions
Post by: Steve Wood on August 24 2011, 11:17:52 AM
DW working fine on mine...so far
Title: Re: Fuel pump questions
Post by: daveismissing on August 24 2011, 01:18:48 PM
There's rumors that the DW pump overpowers the return line too.

Which if true would make it the most powerful pump. :O
I believe later in the thread(s) an admission of a restriction in that line. :icon_redface:
Title: Re: Fuel pump questions
Post by: Steve Wood on August 24 2011, 03:44:38 PM
The Denso takes a little bending on the sending unit opening to get it thru the hole..then bending it back. 

The DW does not fit the hanger properly but a little trimming on the rubber piece at the bottom to clear the filter sock will let it work...

A bigger hammer is always handy when modding cars
Title: Re: Fuel pump questions
Post by: ttipe on August 24 2011, 04:37:58 PM
When I installed the 280 there was a lot of "first install" noise & pics on the line.I have a digital sender and I was able to cut a small amount of the plastic boss around the float arm axis and it just fit in the tank without cutting the edge of the seal bead.If you have an analog sender you can trim the fuel float rod itself ( there is slop which creates the interference).You will also have to work the pump pedestal to get the pump centerline parallel to the fuel return pipe.   
Title: Re: Fuel pump questions
Post by: grand camino on August 27 2011, 11:23:05 PM
FWIW...my 280 Denso lasted about 2000 miles.....mayb e 3 years.  It had an internal shorting issue.    MY new DW pump,i understand, is asian as well. The aeromotive, i think, is american made.     My in-car F/press gauge showd no variance... 43 line off,36 line on.so i dont suspect any return line issues.   At 26/27lbs, F/P shows 68 (close enough as most gauges arent so accurate i read)   BUT.... with the denso,on a full blast,  (all things being equal ie;no changes) i had a steady 11.3 afr....which i was ok with and it ran well.   With NO other change,a full blast with the DW shows me 10.75afr.   Ok,....its a stronger pump up top so should i lower the base f/p some....or just turn the boost up :icon_smile: ....  Would  40/41psi. f/p cause a problem?   thanks
Title: Re: Fuel pump questions
Post by: Steve Wood on August 27 2011, 11:33:25 PM
Hopefully, you are using a modern chip that is programmable.. I would use that to take the fuel off the wide open throttle setting.  That way you do not affect the a/f at lower speeds/part throttle.  40 psi would be about 3.5% leaner across the board.
Title: Re: Fuel pump questions
Post by: grand camino on August 28 2011, 01:01:15 PM
Thanks...glad i asked....  i thought for sure you'd say "give it  boost!"
Title: Re: Fuel pump questions
Post by: Steve Wood on August 28 2011, 03:27:42 PM
You can do that too, if you are serious about every last ounce :D
Title: Re: Fuel pump questions
Post by: Just a Six? on August 28 2011, 07:01:45 PM
Damn - that thing is HUGE..

I assume the install required copious amounts of worm clamps or cable ties?

Denso Fuel Pump 280Lph - Whats in the Box? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zX_O8IJ18zY#noexternalembed-ws)

Who does a video on a pump that is so great (in his opinion) but yet he wont open the packages so you see what you get? Maybe I'm just being Picky today but if I were trying to sell something like he is doing, I would open it all up for people to see the included parts? Is that being too Picky on my end??
Title: Re: Fuel pump questions
Post by: Steve Wood on August 28 2011, 07:56:57 PM
wonder if they are selling counterfeit Densos just like everything else?
Title: Re: Fuel pump questions
Post by: Just a Six? on August 28 2011, 09:34:14 PM
wonder if they are selling counterfeit Densos just like everything else?

I would NOT be Surprised!! I have never had a problem with Jack at Racetronix except his site needs work.
Title: Re: Fuel pump questions
Post by: Steve Wood on August 29 2011, 12:21:53 AM
and you cannot talk to him when you need help
Title: Re: Fuel pump questions
Post by: Steve Wood on August 30 2011, 08:08:47 PM
someone just emailed me for help on another failed, new Denso
Title: Re: Fuel pump questions
Post by: Just a Six? on August 30 2011, 08:40:24 PM
someone just emailed me for help on another failed, new Denso

Its weird how some have many problems with the brand yet mine have been great but I wasted 3 GM pumps one summer. Probably do to a short but we each get our own mixed bag of problems with the parts on these cars.
Title: Re: Fuel pump questions
Post by: Steve Wood on August 30 2011, 10:02:53 PM
Maybe Denso quit making them and someone else has taken them to China?

They had an outstanding reputation for years and suddenly they are failing shortly after install
Title: Re: Fuel pump questions
Post by: ttipe on August 30 2011, 11:18:45 PM
There are other factors which can fail a fuel pump other than the pump.For example not changing a loaded up fuel filter.An OEM manufacturer such as Toyota would not release a piece of junk into an expensive car like the twin turbo supra.Their warranty costs would go crazy and their reputation go head first into the trash.We also modify our existing fuel senders/fuel lines to fit this pump into our cars.Experienc e leads me to believe that we as "cobblers" may be creating/adding failure modes to the pump which do not exist in the supra.Sometime s people don't furnish all the imformation required to start on the problem resolution path,especially when trying to describe symptons and performance characteristic s on a web page.No one has described the volume to pressure relationship at some wattage when talking about their specific experience.The se are the same values which are used to describe the potential of a new fuel pump.So does "new performance charcteristics"-"old performance characteristic s"=problem description? The problem may need to be quantified to have a point of reference or at least to know where we are relative to a known baseline.The reality of "my pump crapped out" exists to a frustrated user but does not enable an interested bystander.     
Title: Re: Fuel pump questions
Post by: Steve Wood on August 31 2011, 12:10:14 AM
No argument there...it is just strange that suddenly we are hearing about failures from a pump that has been outstandingly reliable for years-it has been awhile since the twin turbo Supras hit the road.

Steve Y would tell us to quit messing with things and buy a sled, but, there ain't no snow in Texas
Title: Re: Fuel pump questions
Post by: Steve Wood on August 31 2011, 01:22:10 PM
Beginning to sound like ttipe is right.  I think the pump is okay...probabl y a relay or wiring problem.  More news at 11 :)
Title: Re: Fuel pump questions
Post by: ttipe on August 31 2011, 03:41:58 PM
Steve use to tell me "just put it to the wood & forget it".Amazingly in my case that worked.The simple fact remains that the denso does not have to spin the rpms that the others do to push the same volume at a given pressure.The denso pump body main be close to twice the volume of the other pumps (like walbro).
Title: Re: Fuel pump questions
Post by: The Radius Kid on August 31 2011, 04:18:17 PM
Beginning to sound like ttipe is right.  I think the pump is okay...probabl y a relay or wiring problem.  More news at 11 :)

You could always go to his house and beat him up. :add_wegbrech:
Title: Re: Fuel pump questions
Post by: Steve Wood on August 31 2011, 05:04:43 PM
Steve use to tell me "just put it to the wood & forget it".Amazingly in my case that worked.The simple fact remains that the denso does not have to spin the rpms that the others do to push the same volume at a given pressure.The denso pump body main be close to twice the volume of the other pumps (like walbro).


He used to tell me that the telephone posts would look like a picket fence when I got the ME dialed in..LOL then he would give me the cubic money line
Title: Re: Fuel pump questions
Post by: Steve Wood on August 31 2011, 05:06:06 PM
John, some times it takes a long time to explain troubleshootin g long distance :)  Glad I suggested he jump it from front to back before pulling the tank.
Title: Re: Fuel pump questions
Post by: The Radius Kid on August 31 2011, 05:33:39 PM
John, some times it takes a long time to explain troubleshootin g long distance :)  Glad I suggested he jump it from front to back before pulling the tank.

 
I'm not arguing that.
He still needs to get beat up...honest. :D
Title: Re: Fuel pump questions
Post by: ttipe on August 31 2011, 09:56:00 PM
It has always been tough to be correct when "splainin"to the radius.I still can't figure out how John,Steve & I didn't do one stitch of work on someones car that time at Quaker.As for you "Sir Radius" you need to quit being such a "cheaky bugger" and mind your elders.
Title: Re: Fuel pump questions
Post by: The Radius Kid on August 31 2011, 10:04:11 PM
It has always been tough to be correct when "splainin"to the radius.I still can't figure out how John,Steve & I didn't do one stitch of work on someones car that time at Quaker.As for you "Sir Radius" you need to quit being such a "cheaky bugger" and mind your elders.

 
Sorry big guy. :chin:
As to working on someone else's car,always remember:
 
If you do and something goes wrong....you're the goat.

That's what I told a border guard from the US a few years ago when he thought I was going to Columbus to work on race cars.
No Sir,I let them make their own messes. :icon_smile:
Title: Re: Fuel pump questions
Post by: Steve Wood on August 31 2011, 10:12:12 PM
some people have never built a Heathkit, more or less a crystal set and they have a difficult time with electrical stuff....
Title: Re: Fuel pump questions
Post by: $1987 GN$ on August 31 2011, 10:51:41 PM
some people have never built a Heathkit, more or less a crystal set and they have a difficult time with electrical stuff....

They are getting back in business.


AJ___
Title: Re: Fuel pump questions
Post by: Steve Wood on September 01 2011, 12:19:29 AM
good, someone broke into my shop in Houston and stole my scope
Title: Re: Fuel pump questions
Post by: daveismissing on September 05 2011, 10:36:39 AM
good, someone broke into my shop in Houston and stole my scope

Current bang for the buck:
http://www.saelig.com/PSBEB100/PSPC016.htm (http://www.saelig.com/PSBEB100/PSPC016.htm)
A little cheaper if ordered from China/HK. Hackable to 100Mhz.
WE have a couple- quite usable.
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